121 replies to this topic

[Madddog]

I've seen this debate come up multiple times on these forums so for giggles what do you think? The relavant Sarna articles are of course SRMs/Streak SRMs and (thanks Damascas) MRMs.


IN CANON
IN CANON
IN CANON

Edited by Madddog, 16 July 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[TheOneGunslinger]

why did the other one get deleted?

[Damascas]

He forgot to add a poll to the first one, and given that missile systems which are explicitly stated to lack guidance systems have a to-hit penalty in TT I feel that it is almost irrefutable that the standard SRMs have a guidance system.

The only source I know of where SRMs do not have guidance is MW4 which is a bit more canon Mechassault.

[light487]

Streak SRMs:

"Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway."

SRMs:

"Short-Range Missiles (SRM) pack more power into the missile than almost any other kind. They lack sophisticated guidance systems, so they must deliver their punch at short range. The SRM-2-launcher fires two such missiles at a time."

Why is there even a discussion....? The rules are (from what I understand) that you can't lock on with the SRMs and that the Streak has a "unique" Targa-7 fire control system...

[Damascas]

light487, on 15 July 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Streak SRMs:

"Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway."

SRMs:

"Short-Range Missiles (SRM) pack more power into the missile than almost any other kind. They lack sophisticated guidance systems, so they must deliver their punch at short range. The SRM-2-launcher fires two such missiles at a time."

Why is there even a discussion....? The rules are (from what I understand) that you can't lock on with the SRMs and that the Streak has a "unique" Targa-7 fire control system...

Then why do they not have a to-hit penalty like MRMs?

[Madddog]

Yeah this is my first poll so i messed up the other one lol. And you'd be suprised Damascas I've narrowly avoided flame wars over this debate. Seems people who played mw4 primarily are the hardcore "no lock on you fool!" crowd so I was curious.

And so it begins...

Edited by Madddog, 15 July 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I don't see why what is suppose to be common knowledge is instead up for some kind of debate. SRMs ARE blindfire missiles. That's why they are lighter than the other types. They DO NOT have a lockon. I don't know how more perfectly clear it can be made. Streaks weigh 50% more because of the extra tracking you are getting. This is the entire reason Streak versions exist; to have the option of paying more weigh so that your missiles can track. LRMs lose half their damage per missile to get their lockon. Streaks keep the damage but gain weight. You aren't getting that tracking capability for free kids, like it or not. If you want lockon SRMs, then load up on Streaks. That's why they exist!

[Damascas]

Bluten, on 15 July 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I don't see why what is suppose to be common knowledge is instead up for some kind of debate. SRMs ARE blindfire missiles. That's why they are lighter than the other types. They DO NOT have a lockon. I don't know how more perfectly clear it can be made. Streaks weigh 50% more because of the extra tracking you are getting. This is the entire reason Streak versions exist; to have the option of paying more weigh so that your missiles can track. LRMs lose half their damage per missile to get their lockon. Streaks keep the damage but gain weight. You aren't getting that tracking capability for free kids, like it or not. If you want lockon SRMs, then load up on Streaks. That's why they exist!

Then why do they not have a to-hit penalty?

[Burnsidhe]

Note the word "sophisticated." It doesn't say it lacks *any* guidance systems, just that the guidance systems aren't sophisticated.

SRMs have rudimentary guidance systems, basic telemetry guidance from the mech's targeting computer and sufficient avionics to get them to fly towards the target over a short distance. Accuracy and the limited amount of propellant fuel are why the missiles are short ranged compared to LRMs.

Both SRMs and Streak SRMs can lock on. Streak SRMs require a lock on to fire.

It comes down to this; In tabletop, weapons fire is declared before the results of the hits are known. If a player wants a mech to fire SRMs, the SRMs will fire and generate heat whether they hit or miss. Streak SRMs will only fire and generate heat if the dice indicate that the missiles will hit. Otherwise, they will not fire.

This conserves ammunition and reduces overall heat generated during the battle.

Edited by Burnsidhe, 15 July 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[light487]

Indeed.. the only thing that exists for non-Streaks is the firing system itself.. but the missiles themselves are not linked back to the firing system. So you can "get a lock" so to speak.. but the missiles themselves are still dumbfire missiles with no onboard guidance tracking installed.

Bluten, on 15 July 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Streaks weigh 50% more because of the extra tracking you are getting. This is the entire reason Streak versions exist;

Edited by light487, 15 July 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Madddog]

Bluten, on 15 July 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I don't see why what is suppose to be common knowledge is instead up for some kind of debate. SRMs ARE blindfire missiles. That's why they are lighter than the other types. They DO NOT have a lockon. I don't know how more perfectly clear it can be made. Streaks weigh 50% more because of the extra tracking you are getting. This is the entire reason Streak versions exist; to have the option of paying more weigh so that your missiles can track. LRMs lose half their damage per missile to get their lockon. Streaks keep the damage but gain weight. You aren't getting that tracking capability for free kids, like it or not. If you want lockon SRMs, then load up on Streaks. That's why they exist!

The extra weight of the LRMs/Streaks come from more fuel and more advanced tracking system. The reason i made this pole is everybody on the two sides thinks its obvious that they're right. Lets just keep it civil.

See updated question. Any sugestions on new questions/pole format welcome.

Edited by Madddog, 15 July 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[Damascas]

light487, on 15 July 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Indeed.. the only thing that exists for non-Streaks is the firing system itself.. but the missiles themselves are not linked back to the firing system. So you can "get a lock" so to speak.. but the missiles themselves are still dumbfire missiles with no onboard guidance tracking installed.

In several books SRMs have tracked targets.

Also please read about MRMs they state that the main difference between MRMs and LRMs and SRMS is that MRMs have no onboard guidance system so each missile is more compact and smaller.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/MRM

Edited by Damascas, 15 July 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[sierra gulf]

I agree with Burnsidhe's distinction between lacking a "sophisticated" guidance system and being dumb-fire. The lack of a to-hit modifier in TT on standard SRMs is the most compelling reason for me. I suspect that the reason they get more damage per missile than LRMs is that they are slightly heavier (100 missiles/ton vs. 120/ton), and that they have less weight devoted to fuel and more weight devoted to the warhead. LRMs would need a more sophisticated guidance system not just for accuracy per a greater range, but also to avoid fratricide in the larger salvos. I suspect that the reason many mechwarrior games have gone for the dumb-fire rout is so that streak SRMs would still have an advantage without having to authentically incorporate the no-lock/no-fire system, with would probably just be frustrating for players. In TT the advantage of the system is ammo and heat efficiency and hitting with every missile instead of rolling on the cluster hits table.

[Damascas]

Surprisingly little discussing for a discussion.

[Mr T]

Here's some evidence that supports the idea of SRMs having a basic rudimentary guidance versus the Streak Srms with just a more advanced version.

From Streak SRMS:
Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand. ¹

"Clan scientists have been experimenting with applying the Streak system to LRMs, trading any indirect capacity for less wasteful ammunition usage.^{" 2}

From SRMs:
"SRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS." ¹

From Artemis FCS:
"The Artemis IV Fire Control System is a guidance system that utilizes an infrared laser designator and tight-beam microwave transmitter which improves the accuracy of LRMs, SRMs, and MMLs by roughly thirty-five percent." ^{1 3}

"Therefore a 'Mech mounting an LRM-15 and an LRM-5 would need two Artemis IV systems. (As they use different guidance systems, Rocket Launchers, MRMs, Streak launchers, and NARC systems do not require Artemis IV and do not count towards this limit."


Ok so in summary, the evidence i collected, to me, suggests SRMs do have a very basic type of guidance, that can help guide the SRMs to mechs in some degree, but wont curve and strike with the accuracy of Streaks.

Why do I believe this?

• Artemis IV FCS and Narcs are incompatible with Streaks, but do work with SRMs, meaning there has to be some sort of basic guidance or computer attached to the warhead as both systems affect the projectile while in flight, not just from launch.
  
• If Streak can be implemented on LRMs, it would suggest that the lack of Streak does not equal the lack of guidance, or that missiles which already have a basic guidance can still benefit from Streak upgrades.
  
• Notice how MRMs, are the only not to benefit from either possible Streak upgrades or FCS. MMLs are launchers that can alternate between SRM and LRM launching.

[CheeseThief]

Streaks should have powerful homing systems that lock on like LRM's, but can't fire without a lock.

Normal SRM's should have a basic and crappy lock on system, like one missile locks on for every half second the retical is held over the target. Can fire whenever but a couple of missiles will home and the rest either go strait or maybe follow the target retical, TOW style. I have PPC's for my strait moving tracers, missiles of all kinds demand curvy ones.


SRM's had guidence systems, abiet crappy ones, else there would have been no point to the Dead-Fire ammo or Rocket Launchers as cost saving measures.

Edited by CheeseThief, 15 July 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[Damascas]

Cheesethief just stated the one thing that ends the debate, dead-fire warheads

http://www.sarna.net...d-Fire_Missiles

For these missiles, for both SRM and LRM the guidance system is taken out for larger warheads which shows without refute that SRMs do have onboard guidance systems.

[Madddog]

Seems like that sums it up to me, I think it's a case of game mechanics getting confused for canon. Like coolant flush, autocannons firing a single shot per "round"(an AC 20 by one manufacturer might fire 3 shots, another might fire 100 smaller rounds i.e. pontiac/100), and in the case of mw2 big PPC balls. SRMs do lock.

Edited by Madddog, 15 July 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Madddog, on 15 July 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

The extra weight of the LRMs/Streaks come from more fuel and more advanced tracking system. The reason i made this pole is everybody on the two sides thinks its obvious that they're right. Lets just keep it civil.

See updated question. Any sugestions on new questions/pole format welcome.

The addition of the tracking system adding to the weight of Streaks is exactly what I said in my post. LRMs don't weigh more but the missiles hit half as hard. Both Streaks and LRMs sacrifice for tracking and/or range in their own way. People seem to think that SRMs will lockon by default... but if they did then Streak would be pretty much pointless and have no reason to exist. Streak SRMs exist for a reason and that entire reason is to add lockon capability.

Why would you want to use missiles with no lock? Dead-fire SRMs have the best weight and damage per missile ratios, also, it's hard to miss when the enemy is 5 feet in front of your face. Streaks will fare a bit better farther away but SRMs will outclass it utterly in a point blank range fight.

Edited by Bluten, 15 July 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Scytale]

Bluten, on 15 July 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

The addition of the tracking system adding to the weight of Streaks is exactly what I said in my post. LRMs don't weigh more but the missiles hit half as hard. Both Streaks and LRMs sacrifice for tracking and/or range in their own way. People seem to think that SRMs will lockon by default... but if they did then Streak would be pretty much pointless and have no reason to exist. Streak SRMs exist for a reason and that entire reason is to add lockon capability.

Why would you want to use missiles with no lock? Dead-fire SRMs have the best weight and damage per missile ratios, also, it's hard to miss when the enemy is 5 feet in front of your face. Streaks will fare a bit better farther away but SRMs will outclass it utterly in a point blank range fight.

Disagree - streaks aren't special because they can lock on, they're special because they nearly guarantee hits because they don't let the pilot fire *until* they lock on. Sarna says nothing about SRMs being dumb-fire, and I believe it in fact implies that there is lock-on capability for SRMs.

From Sarna:
"The Streak Missile Launcher is a specialized version of the standard Short Range Missile launcher which withholds fire until it receives a solid lock ensuring all missiles will hit."