98 replies to this topic

[Alan Davion]

Meathook, on 31 May 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

Yes, the tier system screwed you over. It looked at your name and thought "Well, this guy, he's gonna get it now, he will never see the sunlight again harharharhar". It's not because you perform poorly most of your games. That just can't be, right?

Firstly pal, stuff the attitude. Next post I see from you like that I will report you for personal attacks. Second, actually read and understand what I said before attempting to respond again. I was quite clear in my intent, and it seems to have gone completely over your head.

Either that or your just being purposefully antagonistic towards me.

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 31 May 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

MOBA Clone? I don't see any mobs. Sure there's an objective, but clearly you never played the "mission" multiplayer mode in Mechwarrior 4 either... Or are you complaining about "attack lanes" which also existed long before any MOBA ever came around, or have you forgotten the objective modes in games such as Unreal Tournament, or the attack lanes in Quake 3 that focused you towards specific powerup's?

I love this argument of yours, because it's soo lacking. In fact, I can get more money out of playing FW than pug's any day, sure it FEELS like it takes longer to get that money, but at the end of the day, I walk away with my c-bill purse feeling much fuller than ANY day I spent just pugging.

So I've really got to wonder, are you REALLY concerned about the earnings, or is your true problem with wait times, which is remedied by actually queuing for the mode.

Never played Unreal. Never played Quake. They did not interest me in the least.

As for MW4 multiplayer, while I had MW4, my internet at the time simply could not handle online gaming.

That said, aside from my one mention of the wait times in CW in the post you quoted, I have always and only complained about 1. The pathetic map design, because you and I both know that if you tried to lay out a map like any of these for TT BT, you would be thrown out for trying to stack the advantages by forcing other mechs to come through choke points, as well as scattering turrets through your base, and 2. The fact that the mode is dominated by players/teams that treat the game more like a job than a game.

As far as being lacking, I think I've been quite clear in my statements. The only thing I see lacking is any kind of coherent response from you.

[Meathook]

Alan Davion, on 31 May 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Firstly pal, stuff the attitude. Next post I see from you like that I will report you for personal attacks. Second, actually read and understand what I said before attempting to respond again. I was quite clear in my intent, and it seems to have gone completely over your head.

Either that or your just being purposefully antagonistic towards me.

Go on have fun reporting me, I just agreed with you. I'm 100% sure the matchmaker is out to get you. How else can you still be stuck in tier 5 while everyone else feels they are moving up in tiers even when AFK'ing matches? I mean, noone can be that bad, something fishy must be going on. It's in our best interests to fix the MM and provide a better gaming experience for all of us.

[Meathook]

After some thinking I have following suggestions to make to try and fix your problem:

As seen with veterans creating alts, being tiered way below your skill level usually leads to outrageously good stats. If you have way above average stats this should be an indicator something is not working as intended, mail PGI support about it.

Try to screenshot the end-result screens of your games. When doing well you should get an indicator your PSR is rising. If you have a lot more PSR-rising games rather than PSR-lowering ones, and your bar is still not filling, this would be another indicator something is wrong. Submit these screenshots with a report whats happening to PGI.

Edited by Meathook, 31 May 2016 - 08:29 AM.

[MechWarrior319348]

Alan Davion, on 31 May 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Firstly pal, stuff the attitude. Next post I see from you like that I will report you for personal attacks. Second, actually read and understand what I said before attempting to respond again. I was quite clear in my intent, and it seems to have gone completely over your head.

Either that or your just being purposefully antagonistic towards me.



Never played Unreal. Never played Quake. They did not interest me in the least.

As for MW4 multiplayer, while I had MW4, my internet at the time simply could not handle online gaming.

That said, aside from my one mention of the wait times in CW in the post you quoted, I have always and only complained about 1. The pathetic map design, because you and I both know that if you tried to lay out a map like any of these for TT BT, you would be thrown out for trying to stack the advantages by forcing other mechs to come through choke points, as well as scattering turrets through your base, and 2. The fact that the mode is dominated by players/teams that treat the game more like a job than a game.

As far as being lacking, I think I've been quite clear in my statements. The only thing I see lacking is any kind of coherent response from you.

I would just give up, sometimes people troll. If you think you have encountered one... maybe the best thing to do is just move on.

[Meathook]

And suggestion number 3:

Have you tried creating an alt account yourself? Usually with the cadet bonus it doesn't take too long to reach tier 3, if one is doing well. Getting your alt to tier 3 after a few matches would also indicate something is going wrong with your regular account's PSR. This information could also be useful to PGI.

[meteorol]

Alan Davion, on 31 May 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

Yeah if you play the game like it's a god-damned job maybe you can rise quicker. I can't play the game all day everyday. F*** I can barely play the game for 2 hours anymore it's so F***ing boring.

I played about 1300 matches since they gathering data for PSR. Thats like 2.5 matches a day. 5-7 minutes for the matches themself, ~ 2 minutes for waiting for a match. Even if you add a bit of time on top of it as buffer, that is like half a hour per day.

This amount of playing was enough to get to T1 (about 3/4 to max). Playing half a hour per day is hardly playing "like it's a god-damned job".

Alan Davion, on 31 May 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

So, what you're saying is...

A. Because I wasn't here at the inception of the game in order to learn all the ins and outs of said game,
B. I had to learn how to play against people that already had probably at least a couple dozen mechs fully mastered and kitted out to suit the meta, and,
C. I hadn't joined a Unit yet...

You don't think I got screwed over... Yeah, keep smoking there pal.

First of all... your account was created a full year before they started gathering data... so that is atleast somewhat of an indicator you had more than enough time to learn the "ins and outs" of this game...

Moreover it takes more than a few hundred games going "not so well" because you had to play against more experience guys to get to the bottom of T5. I'm sorry.
Ending up at the bottom of T5 requires a large amount matches of playing absolutely terrible. There are more than enough people who had to learn the game under the old ELO system while data gathering was already in place and still had zero issues with getting good enough to be placed in T3 or even higher when PSR was introduced.

If you got placed into T5 and can't get out of it, the reason for it is you being terrible at playing this game. I don't mean to sound offensive, but stop blaming ELO and PSR introduction for your inability to get out of T5. You will never get better by blaming factors out of your control instead of working on the stuff you can influence. If you want to get out of T5 you just have to improve your gameplay.

If you don't know where to begin use websites like metamechs.com to get a general idea about building mechs (not saying those builds are the bet way to build mechs, but they are good for a general idea), watch Protons or any other topplayers twitchstream to get an idea about positioning etc. Most of them are pretty friendly when it comes to answering questions, too.

If you don't want to improve and just play for the fun of it, using unoptimized builds, doing hilarious trollstuff in matches or whatever, that's also fine. To each his own. But if you do so, don't complain and blame the initial ELO/PSR switch for the fact you are stuck in T5.

Edited by meteorol, 31 May 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[Alan Davion]

meteorol, on 31 May 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

I played about 1300 matches since they gathering data for PSR. Thats like 2.5 matches a day. 5-7 minutes for the matches themself, ~ 2 minutes for waiting for a match. Even if you add a bit of time on top of it as buffer, that is like half a hour per day.

This amount of playing was enough to get to T1 (about 3/4 to max). Playing half a hour per day is hardly playing "like it's a god-damned job".

First of all... your account was created a full year before they started gathering data... so that is atleast somewhat of an indicator you had more than enough time to learn the "ins and outs" of this game...

Moreover it takes more than a few hundred games going "not so well" because you had to play against more experience guys to get to the bottom of T5. I'm sorry.
Ending up at the bottom of T5 requires a large amount matches of playing absolutely terrible. There are more than enough people who had to learn the game under the old ELO system while data gathering was already in place and still had zero issues with getting good enough to be placed in T3 or even higher when PSR was introduced.

If you got placed into T5 and can't get out of it, the reason for it is you being terrible at playing this game. I don't mean to sound offensive, but stop blaming ELO and PSR introduction for your inability to get out of T5. You will never get better by blaming factors out of your control instead of working on the stuff you can influence. If you want to get out of T5 you just have to improve your gameplay.

If you don't know where to begin use websites like metamechs.com to get a general idea about building mechs (not saying those builds are the bet way to build mechs, but they are good for a general idea), watch Protons or any other topplayers twitchstream to get an idea about positioning etc. Most of them are pretty friendly when it comes to answering questions, too.

If you don't want to improve and just play for the fun of it, using unoptimized builds, doing hilarious trollstuff in matches or whatever, that's also fine. To each his own. But if you do so, don't complain and blame the initial ELO/PSR switch for the fact you are stuck in T5.

My account was created, yes, but I was not playing at that time. I had no computer capable of running MWO until my brother built himself a new gaming PC and gave me his old one, which is the one I use right now, which is currently about 6 years old.

And don't call it a potato. It's not that weak. I can't play on the highest graphics, yes I admit, but it runs quite smoothly for what it is.

I'm currently saving up for a much higher performing custom pc which I'll build.

As for the rest of your statement, I've gone and copied my stats and I'll put the most important ones here. Obviously stuff like the amount of MC, C-Bills, Exp I currently have I've left out because it doesn't exactly pertain to this conversation.

First my archived stats, from before they did a stat wipe at some point I imagine. When was the last time they did a stat wipe, that would help put this in context as to where I was in the game at the time. Which, judging by the numbers, I was still running around in Trial mechs when these stats were recorded.

Name Value
Kills / Death 3 / 16
Wins / Losses 8 / 9
Kill / Death Ratio 0.19
Avg. XP Per Match 514.88


Now my current stats.

Name Value
Kills / Death 655 / 1,579
Wins / Losses 880 / 1,102
Kill / Death Ratio 0.41
Avg. XP Per Match 704.88

So obviously I am better now than when I was when my stats were last archived, and I've said this in numerous threads about the PSR system, I am a completely average player, at the best of times.

Now, if everyone had had their stats reset for the switch from ELO to PSR, starting me off in Tier 3, and I *still* ended up in Tier 5, that would be totally my fault, but because they did NOT start everyone on equal footing, and let everyone eventually fall into whatever PSR tier they would eventually settle into, but instead, there's really no other way to put this, they let a computer algorithm decide "Oh, this guy has a .19 W/L ratio, he must suck balls" or "Oh, this guy has a 1.8 W/L ratio, he must be an MWO GOD", there's no other way to look at how the ELO to PSR change was done.

Do you see what I'm getting at now?

EDIT: Jesus F***, the MWO forums do not like tables, had to edit those into more manageable bits.

Edited by Alan Davion, 31 May 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[Meathook]

Alan Davion, on 31 May 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Name Value
Kills / Death 655 / 1,579
Wins / Losses 880 / 1,102
Kill / Death Ratio 0.41
Avg. XP Per Match 704.88

So obviously I am better now than when I was when my stats were last archived, and I've said this in numerous threads about the PSR system, I am a completely average player, at the best of times.

Now, if everyone had had their stats reset for the switch from ELO to PSR, starting me off in Tier 3, and I *still* ended up in Tier 5, that would be totally my fault, but because they did NOT start everyone on equal footing, and let everyone eventually fall into whatever PSR tier they would eventually settle into, but instead, there's really no other way to put this, they let a computer algorithm decide "Oh, this guy has a .19 W/L ratio, he must suck balls" or "Oh, this guy has a 1.8 W/L ratio, he must be an MWO GOD", there's no other way to look at how the ELO to PSR change was done.

Do you see what I'm getting at now?

Alright. First off, my background: currently sitting at tier 1, xp bar about 75% filled. Got invited to closed beta but was put after 2 days. Only came back to this game mid January this year, played quite a lot since then, so it took me around five and a half months getting near maxed out tier 1. Have around 3000 games logged. Here are my stats:

K/D: 3477 / 1979
W/L: 1653/1403
KDR: 1.76
Avg. XP: 1572.55

As you can see, we are both not that far off from ~1 W/L ratio, so its not like you are saying im running a 1.8 W/L.

It looks a lot more like the difference is within our average XP per match. This may be an indicator for a bigger disparity between us when it come to average match score, a stat that PGI really should add to the stats page. As you know, while winning or losing affexts your PSR gain, match score also does. There is a certain margin where you can still be on equal PSR level after a loss. So it's not like you are only rated by your W/L ratio, your personal performance is also considered within the PSR formula.

Maybe you should take a look at your average match scores, by looking at the mech stats of the mechs you recently use, and feel you are doing well with. As you can only get the average damage per match from the mech stats page, it is only an estimate of your actual average match score for that mech, but it might give some useful insights.

Here is a mech I'm feeling I am doing well with:

WHM-6R: 189 matches played, 68,216 damage done = ~361 damage per match. So my averga match score with that mech is at least ~180, probably a bit more, as shooting components, using uavs and things like that also boost your match score.

[operatorZ]

No in game experience or skill rating. WOT has a mod that allows players to see others experience/skill, it totally destroys new players because of all the grieffing about "oh look I'm with so and so who is a piece of poop because his level is "whatever"

or

"this is a for sure loss because of so and so"

etc, etc.

as a feature it does nothing to add to the game and does a lot for the petty trolls out there.


Just carry harder and move on.

Edited by operatorZ, 31 May 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[Roadkill]

Death Proof, on 29 May 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

It's a range from 2-tiers up and 2-tiers down; that is:

T1 fights T1, T2, T3

T2 fights T1, T2, T3, T4

T3 fights T1, T2, T3, T4, T5

T4 fights T2, T3, T4, T5

T5 fights T3, T4, T5

Actually, the only thing we've been told for sure that I've seen is that T1 cannot play T4 or T5. What you've posted does seem logical, but as far as I know that has not been confirmed. So your T1 (add T4), T2 (add T5), and T5 lines (add T2) may need to be modified.

[KodiakGW]

Tell you what PGI. I'll spend $1000 on this game if you give us this. I want to see how many of the sub 150 score people your matchmaker teams me up with are the same Tier that I am. I want to see how many are on the other team. I want to start to get a good idea just how well your matchmaker is working.

You up for the challenge???

[Appogee]

Any of us who play frequently know that the matchmaker mostly just gives up in Quick Play and plonks us into average teams based on average skill ratings ... exactly like it did when they were using Elo.

However, putting two tier 1 players with ten tier 4 players does not equal a tier 2 team, regardless of what the average tier rating might be. This is particularly true given the whole tiering system is distorted to make it easier to go up in tiers rather than down.

A lot of players are now at maximum Tier 1, and they are tons better than others who are mid Tier 1. There are a lot of people jumping immediately from Tier 4 to Tier 3 even before they worked out basic things like weapon ranges and grouping.

But the matchmaker kludges them all together and pretends it has created some kind of competitively average team.

As a result:

When I take my best meta Mechs, and I have a couple of other Tier 1 players on my side, we can often carry the inexperienced players we're dumped with.

But usually - because I've been a good PGI customer and bought a lot of Mechs packs - I'm levelling sub-standard Mechs. So I'm not in a meta Mech, I can't carry as hard, my loss rate is much higher, and my frustration with seeing the end of match screen and half a team who can't do 200 damage is higher.

It's kind of perverse that PGI's matchmaker should effectively disincent me to buy Mechs by making it such a chore to level them in imbalanced matches.

Edited by Appogee, 01 June 2016 - 11:32 PM.

[Aeon Veritas]

The critical point is always the population.
No matter how good the MM-algorithm is, it can't work properly if there are too few players.

As exaggerated example: if there are just 24 players the MM can only match those 24 against each other no matter what tier they are in...

What I think would be far more usable than the tier displayed at the end of match is when we had server population counters.
One for each server and it counts the those who have chosen to play on this server.
As example I have chosen to play on the NA and EU server so I count towards both counters.
It's not so much a game population counter, more like "how many players have chosen to play on this server, too?".
This way one could make informed decission for a trade-off between a maybe worse ping but a shorter waittime.

Edited by Aeon Veritas, 02 June 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Malachy Karrde, on 29 May 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

You ever think that maybe they accidentally put srms in their lrm firing group? The arrogance of some players....

I drop in so many mechs trying to get the daily double i occasionally think im in mech X when im really in mech Z and fire the correct weapon group only to release i fired the wrong weapons because im not in the mech i thought i was.
So there are certainly justifiable reasons as you say.

Edited by Ace Selin, 02 June 2016 - 02:01 AM.

[dario03]

Roadkill, on 31 May 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

Actually, the only thing we've been told for sure that I've seen is that T1 cannot play T4 or T5. What you've posted does seem logical, but as far as I know that has not been confirmed. So your T1 (add T4), T2 (add T5), and T5 lines (add T2) may need to be modified.

https://youtu.be/CGTlMDoG4Io?t=990 16:30

[Yosharian]

Alan Davion, on 31 May 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Firstly pal, stuff the attitude. Next post I see from you like that I will report you for personal attacks. Second, actually read and understand what I said before attempting to respond again. I was quite clear in my intent, and it seems to have gone completely over your head.

Get over yourself.

[wanderer]

Quote

In theory, I'm not supposed to be in games with tier 4 and tier 5 players.

Tier level has become increasingly meaningless as the automatic "gain PSR" bias Paul built into the tiering system inevitably pushes even incompetent players into T3 and beyond.

Given a system where PSR loss is dwarfed by PSR gain and the same performance is worth equal amounts at T5 or T1...well, be sure to greet our new T1 Potato Lords when they reach the top of the participation ribbon ranks.

The MM is incapable of filtering incompetent players out due to poor performance and automatically passes them up the ranks, meaning that by now, even seeing a T1 is no longer a guarantee of any real skill, only time played.

[wanderer]

Quote

Eventually you will plateau in that you will gain as much PSR as you will lose PSR due to gaining nothing on a win (especially doing 58 damage)

If he's gaining PSR now, he'll continue to gain PSR in the future. Higher tiers don't change the match scores required for PSR gain/loss. It's just a bigger exp bar. He's likely getting spotting/counter ECM/scouting/assists enough to bump his match score into the + range for wins.

I've managed a +PSR game with a total of seven damage and a single UAV during a win. Yes. Seven damage.

Quote

If you got placed at the bottom of T5 on PSRs release, you simply played absolutely terrible during those 8 months. Sorry.

Or if you simply didn't play during those 8 months, you'd also end up T5.

The massive flaw in the PSR system is that it rewards steady play, regardless of skill improvement, with rising through tiers. Nor does it have the capacity to demote bad players in any meaningful way. If you play the game enough and can count to potato, you will be promoted and in the process, the initial skill-tier relationship degrades further. At this point after months of such advancements, Tier = skill is a shoddy comparison at best and utterly irrelevant (especially below T1) at worst.

That even simply making PSR gains require higher match scores going past T4 ->3->2->1 and PSR losses require similarly higher match scores to avoid in the same manner (and increasing PSR loss, period) would likely turn the positive bias into a more reflective system...

...well, I blame Paul for using what should have been a sorting system as a carrot to simply play lots instead, at the price of utterly destroying any attempt at even rough matchmaking by skill.

[Alan Davion]

Yosharian, on 02 June 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

Get over yourself.

I'm shaking in my boots.