61 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Some people keep making claims about the "role" of light mechs...

Urbanmechs, Adders, and the like aren't scouts or information gatherers. Stop trying to shoehorn all of them into one basket. There are quite a number of lights that were built for either direct combat (e.g. Kit Fox, Panther, etc.) or hit-and-run striking (e.g. Jenner, Commando, etc.).

Not every light was designed to peek over a hill and hold down the "R" key all day long. Stop trying to make them all be that way.

[Juodas Varnas]

I'd be up for much slower rates of fire (very punishing for making mistakes. You missed? Well go **** yourself), more punishing heat-scale, crosshair sway (non-random, based on movement) along with the return to TT armor values.

Would be an interesting experiment anyway. Not sure how good it'd be, but it's way too late to make changes like this.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 31 May 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[Jman5]

IMO lights are the least affected by structure quirks. Their survival relies more heavily on their dodge rating which comes from speed + size. The faster and smaller you are the harder you are to hit, the higher your dodge rating.

The truth of the matter is that damage has gotten out of control in a lot of ways and defensive buffs like structure quirks have simply not kept pace. So PGI really has only two choices. They can implement massive nerfs to firepower that ruin nearly everyones' builds including their own trial mechs. Or they can aggressively implement more defensive boosts like added structure.

What I think would be neat would be to change the AMS slot into a generic defensive slot. Players could then make a choice between an anti missile, anti ballistic, or anti energy item. AMS would work the same as always while anti-ballistic/energy would be a percent damage reduction from those weapon types. These would also have to be strong to be worth their weight.

Edited by Jman5, 31 May 2016 - 09:11 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Khobai, on 31 May 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Because the games reward structure is based solely around how much damage you do. Nothing else really matters.

Believe me if information/role warfare was actually a thing and you got rewarded for it then people would WANT to play lights

I would like to think that, and I support incentivizing them further. BUT, generally speaking, people are gonna want to fight. It'll have to be a pretty dandy reward to pull them towards other roles.

[Khobai]

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BUT, generally speaking, people are gonna want to fight

yes but lights will never be able to fight as well as heavier mechs. thats just a simple reality.

which is why lights need to be able to do something BESIDES fighting thats also crucial to helping your team win.

[Ultimax]

What you are postulating is true, but I wouldn't base balance decisions on it.

Games that strongly devalue armor/hitpoints tend to push even further into the speed/quick strike type of playstyle.

Meaning, if your armor is all but irrelevant and slows you down, and you don't need craptons of weapons to quickly kill things (because TTK is low even for high armor types) then you should be playing whatever is the fastest, hardest to hit and can deal out damage quickly.


That's not a good solution for the game.



More maps would need to be Polar sized, or larger.

They would need objectives, that are spread out over the map requiring high speed to get to (which happens frequently on Polar/Conquest). These objectives need to influence the payouts, in particular for the mechs that can achieve them but also provide teamwide bonuses so there are real reasons to play this strategy beyond "winning more" than if you just killed everyone.

They would also need other objectives calling for armor/firepower so that your team can be a varied mix of mechs that all have something to do.

Edited by Ultimax, 31 May 2016 - 09:27 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I agree that MWO should have had role warfare and info warfare and all that jazz. I agree that it shouldn't just be about how much damage you can do. But please keep in mind that this thread is about what MWO actually is (i.e. a team deathmatch arena shooter, more or less) and not what we all wish it was.

This game will never fundamentally change. The only things that PGI is likely to change are variables such as TTK, heat scale, mobility, skill trees, etc. And even that is a bit of a stretch.

So please keep in mind that I'm really only interested in talking about a very specific question:

How does the TTK-variable, whether decreased or increased, affect the viability of light mechs in MWO?

FupDup, on 31 May 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Some people keep making claims about the "role" of light mechs...

Urbanmechs, Adders, and the like aren't scouts or information gatherers. Stop trying to shoehorn all of them into one basket. There are quite a number of lights that were built for either direct combat (e.g. Kit Fox, Panther, etc.) or hit-and-run striking (e.g. Jenner, Commando, etc.).

Not every light was designed to peek over a hill and hold down the "R" key all day long. Stop trying to make them all be that way.

So you're saying the Hollander wasn't built to spot enemies and run deep into hostile territory to capture important data and resources?

Then why did they make it look so stealthy?

Spoiler

Edited by Alistair Winter, 31 May 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Aresye, on 31 May 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

If Overwatch has proven anything to me, it's that it doesn't matter how good you diversify roles or give unique, teamwork oriented abilities to the various characters. Teamwork and casual don't mix, because nobody wants to be the tank, or the healer, even when it very clearly says, "Team Tips: No Support Heros."

The majority of casual MWO players aren't going to pick up a light mech if the chances of them getting kills ends up even lower than it already is.

I agree, but with the caveat that roles and unique abilities do work in pug matches when all roles and abilities revolve around doing damage. An example of this is Star Conflict, where you have different kinds of space ships (interceptors, fighters, dreadnoughts with artillery weapons, etc) and almost all of them (with the exception of the dreadnoughts with repair drones) are there to do damage.

However, if the gameplay depends on the synergy between healers, buffers, tanks, runners and other classes that aren't primarily dealing damage, then everyone will just flock to the damage dealing classes. Everyone wants to be the guy who does damage and takes kills, unless they identify enough with their team that they will accept other roles. As a rule of thumb, anyway.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 31 May 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

I agree that MWO should have had role warfare and info warfare and all that jazz. I agree that it shouldn't just be about how much damage you can do. But please keep in mind that this thread is about what MWO actually is (i.e. a team deathmatch arena shooter, more or less) and not what we all wish it was.

This game will never fundamentally change. The only things that PGI is likely to change are variables such as TTK, heat scale, mobility, skill trees, etc. And even that is a bit of a stretch.

So please keep in mind that I'm really only interested in talking about a very specific question:

How does the TTK-variable, whether decreased or increased, affect the viability of light mechs in MWO?

It has the potential to somewhat make the game better for light mechs if you enjoy trying to quickly gank mechs without any retaliation.

It has the high potential to make game play extremely poor for the other 3 weight classes, in varying degrees, depending on how far you slide the scales.

It has the potential to also make the game significantly worse for light mechs as well, because instead of needing to land a few good shots to remove your legs - now grazing you with a laser alpha might be enough.


You can test this with friends if you are actually interested.


8v8
2/2/2/2

Everyone builds their mechs, might as well do identical mechs & builds per side

Once the load outs are decided, then have everyone reduce their armor value to 1/2 of maximum in every location (or 1/4 if you want to push further).

The tonnage available from shaving does not get used, you want to test firepower & builds as they exist now vs. 1/2 or 1/4 armor.


Play a few rounds, get some rudimentary initial assessments.

[Moldur]

Yeah, this is one of the dilemmas I keep trying to underline whenever this topic gets brought up, though in more general terms.

Higher TTK will always favor larger groups of mechs while putting solitary flankers at a disadvantage.


The principle stays the same, but for clarity and simple numbers lets consider the following. If it took 1 point of damage to kill a mech, then lone wolf flankers would be very effective, since they can do some serious damage by catching several mechs by surprise and maneuvering to cover. Groups of mechs are not particularly favored because it's overkill; it's wasteful when 1 or 2 guys will do the job just fine.

Now imagine that it takes 1000 points of damage to kill a mech. Well, flankers and lone wolves are now completely useless. Groups now gain a massive advantage not only because they are able to kill mechs 2,3,4,5,6,etc times as fast as a single mech, but also because they are now spreading a massive amount of damage among the group before anyone is in jeopardy.

[operatorZ]

Increase TTK has positive effect on light mechs survivability.

Why?

Well, it relates to the unique quickness of light mechs.

Because it increases light mechs TTK as well. If every mech got 15% more armor that would include light mechs. Hitting a good light mech is 50% skill and 50% luck in my experience, hitting a good light mech is much harder than hitting a good medium , heavy or assault. If we increase the amount of damage needed to disable or kill that light mech, their survivability goes up at a greater fraction than the other mechs with the same armor increase. Because they also have dodge or hit reg armor that the other mechs simply don't have.

But, the mechs they are trying to kill also have an increase in armor. Which results in a general increase to TTK without a "loser" in this scenario.

I approve any changes that increase TTK without unbalancing the game, although in my view increasing TTK through global armor value or structure buffs would benefit lights more that is fine with me.


Edit: in regards to increase in TTK affecting deathball vs. flanker.....no effect, because all armor/structure values for all mechs have moved up the same amount. Deathballing or coordinated maneuvering is still the best way to get the most guns on target.

Edited by operatorZ, 31 May 2016 - 10:59 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Moldur, on 31 May 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

Yeah, this is one of the dilemmas I keep trying to underline whenever this topic gets brought up, though in more general terms.

Higher TTK will always favor larger groups of mechs while putting solitary flankers at a disadvantage.


The principle stays the same, but for clarity and simple numbers lets consider the following. If it took 1 point of damage to kill a mech, then lone wolf flankers would be very effective, since they can do some serious damage by catching several mechs by surprise and maneuvering to cover. Groups of mechs are not particularly favored because it's overkill; it's wasteful when 1 or 2 guys will do the job just fine.

Now imagine that it takes 1000 points of damage to kill a mech. Well, flankers and lone wolves are now completely useless. Groups now gain a massive advantage not only because they are able to kill mechs 2,3,4,5,6,etc times as fast as a single mech, but also because they are now spreading a massive amount of damage among the group before anyone is in jeopardy.

A very nice and succinct way of explaining the dynamic.

And of course, I'm not saying that MWO should lower TTK to help light mechs. I'm simply saying that an inevitable consequence of increasing TTK without any other counter-measures is that fast flankers and infiltrators (mostly light mechs, but also other mechs) will be less dangerous.

I wonder if PGI is considering this, if their goal is really to increase TTK.

[Volthorne]

Aresye, on 31 May 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

If Overwatch has proven anything to me, it's that it doesn't matter how good you diversify roles or give unique, teamwork oriented abilities to the various characters. Teamwork and casual don't mix, because nobody wants to be the tank, or the healer, even when it very clearly says, "Team Tips: No Support Heros."

I'm going to have to call you out on this, having played Overwatch for a good 25 hours (for reference each match is usually 10-15 minutes) since it released: I have no idea who you're playing with, but it must be some really, REALLY bad players. In all of my games, I've only had a small handful where if the team is lacking a particular role, someone won't switch to it immediately, and a quick notification in team chat ("We have too many X, can one of you go Y") usually elicits a volunteer. The reason for this is probably because each hero has - despite their "class label" - the opportunity to be useful in just about any situation. Defensive heroes are almost without exception just as useful on offense, and vice-versa. A couple exceptions I would make would be Mercy, McCree, and Symmetra, all of whom are incredibly difficult to take outside of their intended roles (ie: taking Symmetra while your team is attacking is really f*cking dumb because she has almost zero offensive capabilities. That doesn't mean you can't do it, but you'd be much better off with another hero).

Quote

The majority of casual MWO players aren't going to pick up a light mech if the chances of them getting kills ends up even lower than it already is.

That's probably because Light 'Mechs require among all other things, a completely different mindset and play-style than every other weight class and tonnage within said classes (exceptions being the Cicada and the Ice Fridge, which are over-grown Lights).

Edited by Volthorne, 31 May 2016 - 12:19 PM.

[DAYLEET]

Alistair Winter, on 31 May 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

But doesn't higher TTK mean that you're punishing light mechs? Their ability to harass and do surprise attacks become less and less meaningful as TTK goes up, surely?

If you look at it with kill as a measure of success, yes.

but the strength of the light that gets behind the enemy is to throw a uav, shoot some back and gets 3 or 4 or more guys turn around and get paranoid, bonus if they chase. If the light can get a kill that's awesome too but they arent killers. They secure kills trying to retreat, they disrupt the enemy, but other than that a higher ttk wouldnt nerf them, they would also benefit from the higher ttk.

[Khobai]

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Urbanmechs, Adders, and the like aren't scouts or information gatherers.

yeah and those mechs also suck balls

because slow lights dont work. period.

nothing is ever going to make slow light mechs good.

but at least role warfare and information warfare can help out the faster light mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 31 May 2016 - 01:01 PM.

[Felio]

In theory, a rising tide raises all boats, as they say. Lights would also take longer to kill, so maybe nothing would change.

I'm a battletech noob, but it seems to me lights getting ninja kills on fresh mechs is a bit of an anomaly anyway.

Weaving through the battle, taking shots where you can to help wear down enemies without actually killing any yourself is fun. It's what I used to do in 9 out of 10 games. It's rarely possible these days, though. People murderball up more and pack more firepower than they used to. There are also 50% more crosshairs to aim at you after they moved from 8v8 to 12v12. And hit detection is better.

[wanderer]

What matters is that we can put increasingly large amounts of damage on the same pixel. Not only does this mean a single 'Mech kills faster, it also means that focus fire is even more brutal than it would be otherwise.

In TT, a KDK-3 would be 1) 50/50 chance of hitting with each double tap and 2) would be at best 8 10-point hits randomly striking the target. Even laserboats would have their alphas somewhat diffused.

That's the problem with weapons having limited spread in a damage model that rewards being able to focus damage. Spread inherently increases TTK simply because two or three armor sections can take more than one. Weapons with spread automatically lose damage potential inside their "effective" range because damage that hits non-vital points is effectively almost as wasted as not hitting at all.

Perfect, instant convergence is the key to mega-alpha damage.

[DAYLEET]

Khobai, on 31 May 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

yeah and those mechs also suck balls

because slow lights dont work. period.

nothing is ever going to make slow light mechs good.

but at least role warfare and information warfare can help out the faster light mechs.

That's not entirely true. My Adder was very good last time i used it(2 months ago). When you are near assault and heavies you are invisible and you can dish out some serious damage with 3cerml+lb10x while assisting the fatties. The low profile and weapon placement is awesome and while you are not fast, getting in and out of cover is fast.

[wanderer]

A slow light can't do what a fast light can, and it's usually why slow lights get dumped on.

A slow light is basically a mini-version of slower mediums, it's meant to hang tight with the big guys and end up an extra angle of fire. Try and function outside the deathball and you're nothing more than a slow target for faster lights or a easy solo kill for bigger Mechs.

[Trauglodyte]

Two things fixes this:

- Heat scale + slight speed reticle bounce + HUD flicker w/ damage and heat that all causes, after say 50% of the scale, the slowing or widening of convergence

- Set the base structure value of a weight class based upon the heaviest mech within that group and then add structure buffs for the lighter mechs to equal out

By doing both of the above, you slow down damage slightly and you make all mechs equal on the inside. After all, in the dark, all mechs are the same. Amirite? Jokes aside, the problem is that, as it has been said, armor is simply external structure and, as such, doesn't do anything other than keep you from getting your gear crit out from under you. An Awesome doesn't carry the amount of armor as an Atlas but, if you strip it all off, they should both be able to stand up and fight as long. From there, you're simply making mechs different by speed, weapon load-outs, and quirks built around the designs upon which they were designed.