18 replies to this topic

[Trashhead]

Problem:
PGI is unable to meet the players demands for how maps, game-modes, match-making, balancing, new concepts, etc. should be.

When ever they try something (especially if it is something new), according to a good portion of the player-base, PGI did a bad job.
(This is not my personal opinion as such, I just try to reflect what the forum-warriors are saying; remember that satisfied customers rarely raise their voice, though, so we usually only get negative feedback, never positive one.)

From my point of view a lot of the problems with the game are coming from a lack of feedback in general.

1. There is no real Beta-testing within this game.
Players will be presented with a finished map, game-mode or [what ever], and all PGI can do is to tweak it.
If the product has initial flaws, they would - technically - need to start from scratch.
They do not have the manpower to do that, because manpower needs money, and in a niche-game such as MWO, money is tight.

2. It's almost impossible to predict if the players will like certain new gameplay-elements.
(ok, according to the forums EVERYTHING that PGI does suxx balls, but those are only the players how dislike what they see; remebner: satisfied customers rarely speak up.)
Plus listening to the players who scream the loudest is not necessary the way to go, as we have often seen.
Then again it could be awesome to listen to them - Urbanmech, anyone? ;)
So, I have no clear answer to the question if listening to the playerbase will yield good results.

It appears, the only way to find out what will work and what won't... is to actually do it.
But how to do it without wasting months of work?


How about - some sort of in-game Beta-Client?
We currently have two different game-environments:
[Quick-Play] and [Faction-Play]

How about a third-one?
[Beta-Play]
(Name it what you want, but "Work-In-progress-Play" seems a little to long to me.)

The purpose would be to present the players with a "game-mode" in which they could try out what ever PGI is currently working on.
Be it a new map (like the new Viridian Bog),
a new game-mode (like Solaris),
a new match-maker (or rather tweaks to the existing one),
a new concept (like Infantry),
a new UI (or parts of it),
what ever, you name it.
Everything that is part of the current client - except a new client itselt - could be testet here.
So PGI could present the players with their progress while also getting valuable feedback.

An example would be a new or a revamped map.
PGI could present us with a pre-Alpha Version of that map - much like with the new 1v1, 2v2 and 4v4 maps we could test-play in the private lobby.
Just the basic map, no textures, no trimmings, just to test if the map would work.
If the layout would be ok, textures could be added -> next Alpha-Test.
Add details -> next Alpha-Test.
Remove those roots and pebbles that will stop a mech dead in it's tracks -> next Alpha-Test.
... you get the idea.

Feedback could be given in one of two simple ways:
(I take as an example again "a new map")
1. A separate thread in the Forum. Not the best choice as a lot of players do not visit the forum, plus some people tend to write walls of text (just as I do).
2. In form of a little feedback-window, twitter-style. If a player has played said new map for at least X matches (lets say, 10), he could give feedback in a simple text-window that is presented to him.
If he wants to give further feedback, he needs to play another X matches (say: 50; this would be to avoid feedback-spam, since someone would need to read all the messages).
The length of the text should be limited (like twitter), and in case PGI gets a lot feedback to certain problems, those problems should be highlighted and presented to the player as "known issues, we are working on it, will be fixed in the next patch on [date]", to avoid redundant feedback.
(Pro-Tip: Bonus-Points for a message "Your feedback has been read.", when someone at PGI has read it. This is what bothers a lot of players: not knowing if their feedback was read or falling on dead ears. And yes, we know that "has been read" does not mean "PGI will do that".)


I have no idea if this could be implemented within the MWO-client,
but since we already have two very different gameplay-environments (Quick-Play and Faction-Play) I assume it is possible.
Might take some work, but once it's done it will be available for further use.
(I'd call the time needed to pull this off an "investment".)

It could give PGI valuable feedback BEFORE they start full-scale production on a new item,
while it could give the players the feeling that they are more then a simple source of income for PGI (which we still are, of cause, but thats a different story. You can't pay bills by doing a job - somebody must pay you, or it's just a hobby).


Thougts?

EDIT:
For clarification: I know there is a public test server.
But as it has been pointed out, it is rarely used.
My whole proposal revolves around the idea to make testing new stuff and giving feedback much easier then installing another (Test-)Client and heading to the forums for feedback.

Plus maps that only can be tested in a private Lobby also exclude a number of players, too.

Edited by Trashhead, 12 June 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

It's called the public test server,
It's a thing and it has its own forum section,
( on phone can't link at this time)

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 June 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

It's called the public test server,
It's a thing and it has its own forum section,
( on phone can't link at this time)

And PGI very very rarely uses it.

[Peter2k]

Been there, done that

Generally speaking it's not a bad idea
But they don't test everything, and usually players are rather uninterested

I had fun with ghost laser range especially
Documentation on the forums said optimal range would not be affected, only beyond optimal range
But all ranges where affected
Many bugged Russ on twitter about it
Russ said optimal range is not affected, but it was

At some point Paul chimed in and said all ranges are affected, working as intended
And the new radical idea died
Could've been good, implemented terribly

Ehh, good times /S

How can OP be here since 2012?
You're saying you haven't seen the test server yet?

Also which radical new ideas were talking about?
The height of ecm balance was not a million ideas from the community, but to make the radius smaller
So basically like quirks, a change of some values in a XML file somewhere

Edited by Peter2k, 12 June 2016 - 09:18 AM.

[Peter2k]

http://mwomercs.com/...27-public-test/


Besides
These days unhappy customers just leave

The market is flooded with games

Only unhappy players that see that this game could be so much more and love the ip actually come here

And I've seen some of that silent majority wake up as of late and speak out negatively as well

PGI also put new maps in for beta testing
Can be seen in private matches
For feedback purposes (still there? Haven't looked recently)

Edit:
The last thing I'll add is this
I think from all the idea&suggestion threads in they're own subsection of the forums I saw only like twice someone from PGI respond to an idea

Edited by Peter2k, 12 June 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 12 June 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

And PGI very very rarely uses it.

For good reasons.

Barely anyone plays it when they do.

We know that the PTS servers is an additional cost that is incurred by the company to run. And the past few rounds of PTS servers where pretty much pointless.

Nearly everyone felt that they should forum warrior the entire thing based on just the change write ups rather then playtesting and providing PGI with any form of usable match DATA.

I'm all for needing more public testing to identify issues early, but the last rounds of PTR testing where essentially pointless when you could only get 4v4 matches because of the lack of people willing to test on the server.

This is a two sided issue. PGI needs to test things earlier, but all the people that are content to simply complain about this 24/7 on the forums need to put up or shut up when they do run a test and get on the **** Test server and get them metrics data when they do host them.

Because unless you actually get the people to physically show up and play on the servers, then there is no point in even testing it to begin with.

[Cy Mitchell]

I was deeply involved during the development of MWLL. There were three Clans who were handpicked by the MWLL staff to pre-test almost all the new content prior to release. We all had to sign NDAs. When something was ready for testing the MWLL staff called and we responded. We spent hours and hours following specific instructions to generate the data they needed to determine whether a system was working as intended. It was sometimes grueling and monotonous work. We crushed a lot of bugs and sent some stuff back to the drawing boards. Our advise for improvements to game systems was given proper consideration. Not all the suggestions made it into the game but some did.

MWO needs a team of testers like that.

[Mcgral18]

Rampage, on 12 June 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

I was deeply involved during the development of MWLL. There were three Clans who were handpicked by the MWLL staff to pre-test almost all the new content prior to release. We all had to sign NDAs. When something was ready for testing the MWLL staff called and we responded. We spent hours and hours following specific instructions to generate the data they needed to determine whether a system was working as intended. It was sometimes grueling and monotonous work. We crushed a lot of bugs and sent some stuff back to the drawing boards. Our advise for improvements to game systems was given proper consideration. Not all the suggestions made it into the game but some did.

MWO needs a team of testers like that.

They do have the Secret Squirrels (that one popular Reddit thread showcased some previews, like the new Hero mechs and random tomfoolery)

Though, I've heard the Secret Squirrels are completely ignored on certain subjects, resulting in some leaving or rebelling (as Mr Secret Squirrel showed us)

[El Bandito]

Current game is still in Beta.

[Alistair Winter]

PGI definitely should use player feedback more. They would have averted some pretty big disasters (Invasion mode / Community Warfare / Faction Play) if they did.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 12 June 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 12 June 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

PGI definitely should use player feedback more. They would have averted some pretty big disasters (Invasion mode / Community Warfare / Faction Play) if they did.

The echo chamber isn't loud enough. Those earplugs are OP.

[Moldur]

Alistair Winter, on 12 June 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

PGI definitely should use player feedback more. They would have averted some pretty big disasters (Invasion mode / Community Warfare / Faction Play) if they did.

shh, shh... little baby CW/FP is still alive. Isn't that right? Good baby. Shh.. why won't the baby drink!? Why won't my baby drink the milk?!?!?

[Trashhead]

Thanks for the feedback so far.
I edited the original post for clarification:


EDIT:
For clarification: I know there is a public test server.
But as it has been pointed out, it is rarely used.
My whole proposal revolves around the idea to make testing new stuff and giving feedback much easier then installing another (Test-)Client and heading to the forums for feedback.
Plus maps that only can be tested in a private Lobby also exclude a number of players, too.

[Appogee]

Your premise is based on the idea that PGI wants player feedback.

But they don't.

You see it in the way they ignore their own forums. Russ pretty much said it in the last Town Hall.

Edited by Appogee, 12 June 2016 - 12:25 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Appogee, on 12 June 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

Your premise is based on the idea that PGI wants player feedback.

But they don't.

You see it in the way they ignore their own forums. Russ pretty much said it in the last Town Hall.

Yeah the we know best comment pretty much killed this game for some old fans that still put money into this product, I might be highly critical of them, but I supported the game with a lot of cash, since that brain fart, followed by the unstable servers when the kodiak launched stopped playing and putting money in his pocket, he doesn't deserve us and I return the contempt he clearly displays to the people that keep him in business . The only thing that would change my mind is a town hall where he not only apologises but looks and sounds sincere doing it.

*shakes head* don't know why I bother to keep posting if i'm honest, if I had any sense I'd just cancel the PHX and Cyclops, walk away and wait for 2017

Edited by Cathy, 12 June 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

They do have the Secret Squirrels (that one popular Reddit thread showcased some previews, like the new Hero mechs and random tomfoolery) Though, I've heard the Secret Squirrels are completely ignored on certain subjects, resulting in some leaving or rebelling (as Mr Secret Squirrel showed us)

If they (some of them) are breaking the confidentiality agreement then I can see how they would not be used much. We were not even permitted to say that we were involved in testing and as far as I know there was never a leak during the time that I was involved.

[Andi Nagasia]

the reason its a PTS is so that you dont have to download it with the main game,
most people dont care about the PTS and so making it part of MWO is more of a Hindrance,

if you want to help develop MWO, when they have a PTS Play it, tell them your thoughts,
because if you dont and a Change comes threw that you dont agree with you have no right to complain,

much like all those people who complain about whos in office, but didnt vote,

[LordNothing]

i think the solution might actually be to have some modicum of mod support. take kerbal space program, a very mod driven game. some of the mods were so good, the developers merged certain mods into the game actual, sometimes even hiring the modders who made them. that is excellent dev <-> community interaction there. id love to see that with pgi.

[kesmai]

The sound of The waves gently washing at beach is music to my ears.
A cloudy sky, surrounded by a vast ocean of saltywater.
A lonely seagull shrieks in surprise.