34 replies to this topic

[Chryckan]

The Spider hasn't been a good or even decent mech for a long long time as it has neither the tonnage or the hardpoints to make much of a impact in a fight.

It had one thing going for it which was it's speed and agility. It could outrun anything that wasn't a light and those lights that could keep up with it could be outmanoeuvred (out jumped really).

My spider just got run down by a Viper.

Lately a number of very fast and agile medium mechs has been released. The phoenix hawk is nearly as fast and is at least the the spiders equal when it comes to jumping. And at least speedwise the Viper is up there. (Haven't personally piloted it so can't be more specific.)

Now the spider is a mech that's out gunned by a locus. It's one remaining tactic was to avoid lights and boom and zoom the heavier weight classes. Cept now at least there are two medium mechs that can boom and zoom it.

So with the release of the Viper and the Hawk did the Spider become the first mech in MWO to become obsolete due game balance issues?

Edited by Chryckan, 25 July 2016 - 02:58 AM.

[Stormie]

Even if that were the case, which I don't believe, do you want to make an argument for why the Commando and Vindicator aren't already in this position?

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Was the Awesome not obsoleted by the BLR and STK for a really long time?

Was the Cataphract not obsoleted by the Warhammer?

Was the DWF not partially obsoleted (90%, lol by the Kodiak?

I could well go on.

Power creep is power creep.

[Bud Crue]

Chryckan, on 25 July 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

So with the release of the Viper and the Hawk did the Spider become the first mech in MWO to become obsolete due game balance issues?

Lots of mechs have become redundant due to game balance issues...only to be revived when PGI shifts things around.

To wit: all of a sudden I am seeing Cataphracts in game again. I believe that between the Warhammer and Marauder, those two mechs had rendered most Cataphract builds obsolete. With the recent nerfing of the Hammer and Mad, the Phracts are coming back (a bit). If you're into mixed tech, many decided to shelve their Maulers and just run Kodiak 3s. Before that mny dumped their Firestarters for Arctic Cheetahs. Now that I think about my own mechs: the X-5 is a Jenner with 5 more tons and way better structure quirks (admittedly a hero, but still...same loadout as a "lesser" mech and overall better. Tbolts were largely supplanted by Hoppers and BKs, but are enjoying a bit of a renaissance post nerf pass. Heck, pre-rescale I know many prefered the Spider 5k over the Locust 3v, since they both had the 50% energy cool down for the 1LPL build, but the spider also had JJ.

Point is, the comparison you make is not the first instance of perceived obsolescence and it won't be the last.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

The Phract is coming back because it has ALMOST atlas level structure quirks. (and the 1X has some crazy weapon quirks as well)

Edited by Keshav Murali, 25 July 2016 - 03:53 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Keshav Murali, on 25 July 2016 - 03:53 AM, said:

The Phract is coming back because it has ALMOST atlas level structure quirks. (and the 1X has some crazy weapon quirks as well)

Its had those quirks for months. Yet it wasn't played. I think it is coming back into play because the Hammer and Mad's quirks were toned down. The Phracts were untouched. Always loved by Phracts and had hoped PGI would give their arm hardpoint locations a little lift with the rescale, but instead they went with the "nerf the other mechs like it", to render the Phract more desirable. Sorry didn't mean to further the digression of the OP.

[Chryckan]

Stormie, on 25 July 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

Even if that were the case, which I don't believe, do you want to make an argument for why the Commando and Vindicator aren't already in this position?

That the Vindi and the Phract and others isn't as regularly played isn't because they are bad per say. It's just that newer mechs can do the same thing a little bit better.
A good pilot in a Phract or a Vindi will still get good scores with those mechs, while a bad pilot will get better scores in a Hammer or Marauder because they are more powerful thus more forgiving. That's power creep.

This isn't about a new mech of the same type, in this case a light, being released that's better than the Spider.

This is about new mechs being released that negates all the Spider's strengths. Before the Hawk and the Viper nothing in the game could run as fast while jumping as high as the Spider. And the mechs that could match it in either of those areas were all lights. So at least they had as little armour as the Spider.

Now there are two mediums with medium mechs armour and fire power that can do the same.
Before a Spider had to be cautious about lights just because they could match the Spiders only strength while almost all of them could out gun it.
With two mediums able to do the same the Spider is as outclassed as a three year old in a prize fight.

Let's use the Atlas for an thought experiment. It's main strength is the fact that it can soak more damage than any other mech thanks to its massive armour. Now imagined if a mech was released with that gimmick that it had armour piercing weapons. Suddenly the main strength of Atlas would stop existing. And if the heavy armour was the Atlas only strength then there would no longer be any justification for it to exist. It would be obsolete.

That's what's happening to the Spider.

And I admit to the Commando. At least a couple of its variants is in the same position. though there are still a few that can pack an okay punch for a light. So maybe not all Commando varaints have gone the way of the Dodo.

The highest meta tier Spider has an alpha of 11. That's makes a medium look like an Atlas. No imagine if the Atlas had the speed and agility of a Locus. Not something you'd want to face.
Cept that's what Spider pilots are facing when it comes to the Viper and the Hawk.
You can't out run it and you can out gun it.

[Fang01]

Viper only goes 139. Even the slowest spider will top that.

[Bud Crue]

Chryckan, on 25 July 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

This isn't about a new mech of the same type, in this case a light, being released that's better than the Spider.

This is about new mechs being released that negates all the Spider's strengths. Before the Hawk and the Viper nothing in the game could run as fast while jumping as high as the Spider. And the mechs that could match it in either of those areas were all lights. So at least they had as little armour as the Spider.

Not sure I am getting what your are saying but to me you are essentially pointing to the Storm Crow effect. The Storm Crow to many, is the perfect medium. It is fast, has potentially massive weaponry and is tanky. Does it not render many mechs near it in weight class obsolete or at least redundant? Many IS posts in re scouting complaining that they can't match the Crow no matter what medium or light they bring. Not sure, if this is what you are getting at though.

As to the Spider, I have larger alphas than 11 with several builds, most go at least 140ish and I rarely bother with more than a couple of jumpjets. Point being is that if the Spider was obsolete, it was obsolete before the Viper. Certainly one does not need to look to new mediums for that comparison either. If you wanted to, you could make the argument that the Loyalty Cicada of last year made it obsolete. So I am still not sure what you are really getting at. To me lots of mechs have suffered the fate you describe above. Changes in the game revive some, others are left to their fate.

Edited by Bud Crue, 25 July 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Rock Roller]

One Mech to underperformed them all: Victor. And now back to your post.

I pilot the Phoenix Hawks a lot right now. Some Spiders are easy game but some are hard. It's all about rolling damage and using that maneuverability. The PHX seems to need over an XL300 and that gets you 116 kph. I personally favor a XL310 and hit about 120 kph with one ERLL and 3 MPL. It is pretty good at hunting lights and Vipers. That being said the Spider is even faster and a much smaller target.

All of these units depend on Speed. Also the PHX has much better arms but it still can't afford to roll damage and not lose those arms. Target those and you wipe it's weapons out.

The Viper is very fragile and lacks your ECM. Ambush and run away.

Also advanced sensors and seismic sensors help a bunch. Getting the drop on fast movers and not letting them get the drop on you is huge!!!

Edited by Rock Roller, 25 July 2016 - 12:19 PM.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

TBH, a CQ victor barelling down on a non SRM filled assault or heavy will be glorious victory. For the victor. (lol)

[Steel Raven]

The Spider's popularity took a nose dive after the re-scale when every light pilot fell in love with the Locust.

Allot of pilots are still adjusting to the re-scale, I don't expect the Spider to be any different now you can actually hit the little $%!@ at range.

[Alienized]

Rock Roller, on 25 July 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

One Mech to underperformed them all: Victor. And now back to your post.

never forget the highlander.

Keshav Murali, on 25 July 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

TBH, a CQ victor barelling down on a non SRM filled assault or heavy will be glorious victory. For the victor. (lol)

why i love my victor so much. big XL, 3 or 4JJ's, ac20 + srm's including artemis. thing goes nuts on everything that is not a brawler and is mobile enough to deal with lights. ac20 ftw.
still the most fragile assault ever =(

[SilentScreamer]

Chryckan, on 25 July 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

The Spider hasn't been a good or even decent mech for a long long time as it has neither the tonnage or the hardpoints to make much of a impact in a fight.

It had one thing going for it which was it's speed and agility. It could outrun anything that wasn't a light and those lights that could keep up with it could be outmanoeuvred (out jumped really).

My spider just got run down by a Viper.

Lately a number of very fast and agile medium mechs has been released. The phoenix hawk is nearly as fast and is at least the the spiders equal when it comes to jumping. And at least speedwise the Viper is up there. (Haven't personally piloted it so can't be more specific.)

Now the spider is a mech that's out gunned by a locus. It's one remaining tactic was to avoid lights and boom and zoom the heavier weight classes. Cept now at least there are two medium mechs that can boom and zoom it.

So with the release of the Viper and the Hawk did the Spider become the first mech in MWO to become obsolete due game balance issues?

I agree with you that the Spider is outgunned Chryckan, but the Viper and Phoenixhawk are late-comers. The Arctic Cheetah was introduced over a year ago, is just as fast as the viper and packs way more power than any Spider.

The Spider survived the ACH, it will survive the Viper. Just wait for the play return to 50% heavy mechs after Viper release and Light Fight event to pass and you can return to harassing the big guys with your Spider.

Steel Raven, on 29 July 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

The Spider's popularity took a nose dive after the re-scale when every light pilot fell in love with the Locust.

Allot of pilots are still adjusting to the re-scale, I don't expect the Spider to be any different now you can actually hit the little $%!@ at range.

I do not find the rescale a problem using my 5D and Anansi Spiders. My gameplay with these two has always been to get a few shots in and disapear before the enemy can return fire. The spider V and K pilots are probably suffering because they typically have smaller alphas and the spider can no longer survive in the line of fire due to bad/small hitboxes.

[Void Angel]

Fang01, on 25 July 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Viper only goes 139. Even the slowest spider will top that.

I don't think the Spider is obsolete - it has ECM, if nothing else - but you're falling into a common logic trap here. It's not about whether or not the Viper can outrun the Spider on the race track; it's about whether the Viper, once it acquires the Spider, can be outrun reliably before it destroys its target. The OP suspects that the answer is now, "no."

Alienized, on 29 July 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

never forget the highlander.

Never forget the release of the Highlander, either.

[ImperialKnight]

Fang01, on 25 July 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Viper only goes 139. Even the slowest spider will top that.

so? the Viper doesn't need to be faster than the Spider. It just needs to keep it in its sight long enough to nail it with c-SPLs in the leg.

The Spider can never outfight a Viper. ECM? Why would I ever take a Spider when there's the Arctic Cheetah, or even the Raven.

Unless PGI gives the Spider additional hardpoints, it is what it is. An obsolete mech.

[ice trey]

Fang01, on 25 July 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Viper only goes 139. Even the slowest spider will top that.

If he's using a stock engine in the Kurita spider, he'll get run down (It's only a standard 210), but otherwise, stock engines break even with the engine in a viper. Both mechs are 8/12/8s

However, being MWO, you can fit more engine into an IS mech, but not in a clan omni, so so long as you've given your spiders an engine rated higher than 240, and have been speed-tweaked, you'll outrun it.

[Spleenslitta]

Stormie, on 25 July 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

Even if that were the case, which I don't believe, do you want to make an argument for why the Commando and Vindicator aren't already in this position?

I agree with the OP regarding the Spider becoming obsolete. It's only real advantage over the Viper is it's ability to make tighter turns but to be frank that is not enough.

But the Vindicator is most certainly not obsolete. It has really good torso/arm twist/pitch limits. I don't give a damn about quirks so they don't matter to me.
The Vindicator is just unsuited to the meta way of building mechs and that is all. It's far from obsolete. It's just missunderstood.

[Requiemking]

Honestly, I think a lot of these "X Lightmech is dead" are just born out of ignorance. I mean, look at the Wolfhound. It used to be played no differently than a Firestarter. Now that it's bigger, I've already found the style I want to play it with. ERLL sniping Wolfhound 2. As with any so-called "Bad mech", its a matter of finding the best way to play it.

[Void Angel]

To a degree - but there are empirically better and worse 'mechs, and you cannot discount the meta out of hand. There are reasons that the meta is what it is: part of that reason is the Thomas Theorem - but part of it is Darwinian selection.