6 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

I have seen the various volume based critiques of the Re-Scale that seem to indicate a parallel between the mech's overall tonnage and and overall volume scale and pixel counts. However these are skewed in many cases because the weapon pod space is uniform across all weapon types in MWO. In MWO an AC20 fits in the same outward volume appearance as an AC2 or machine gun. Think of the Catapult K-2 that places Gauss Rifles or AC20's in what are actually machine gun hardpoints with no distortion (or very little) to the mech's outward appearance. This might be aesthetically pleasing and more economical, but it was not accounted for in the Re-Scale.

This is actually not possible as evidenced by lore versions of mechs like the Hunchback and Hollander whose outer dimensions are skewed to account for the fact that they are carrying weapons intended for Heavy and Assault class mechs. The lore Shadow Cat Prime has a much larger Gauss Rifle arm as well.

To use the current volume based measure for the Re-Scale correctly you would have needed to set minimum and maximum volume thresholds on a mech class basis at the very least. This would have accounted for the ability of larger mechs to carry all large weapons on their hardpoints which smaller mechs can not do.

It's nice that a 30 ton mech can carry 5 and 10 ton weapons with no outer distortion, or maybe it's not, but they do. But it's wrong that 6 Large Lasers for instance occupy the same outer volume as 6 Small Lasers or 4 LRM5 take the same space as 4 LRM20.

The result was some really obviously skewed results like the Warhammer and Grasshopper, 2 70 ton mechs, having larger forward facing volume and target size than the Stalker and Warhawk, two 85 ton mechs that typically carry a much larger volume/tonnage of weapons. But in MWO they get that larger volume for free. It just magically fits in the same space of, say Medium Lasers which are likely most of what Warhammers and Grasshoppers use their energy hardpoints for, but Stalkers and Warhawks do not.

So this unaccounted for weapon pod space needs to be corrected or accounted for at some future date in the outer volumes of the mechs. Or minimum/maximum scales for each mech class. Or something. In the meantime you could reverse the over-sizing the Re-Scale placed on certain lower tonnage mechs by just reverting the changes to the previous state, before the Re-Scale.

It all goes back to machine gun hardpoints holding Gauss Rifles with no problems under MWO's hardpoint mechanics and this being overlooked in the Mech Re-Scale.

[Lightfoot]

Or consider the Shadow Cat Prime for example. In the lore version it has a huge right arm to account for over 25% of it's mass being in the Gauss Rifle. That is not how the Shadow Cat is portrayed in MWO because MWO has tiny Gauss Rifles that are not volume per ton correct. Result is the Shadow Cat has that Gauss Rifle volume inserted into the rest of it's mech sections, falsely inflating their volume. Result, MWO's Shadow Cat is too big.

At any rate you can't call MWO's Re-Scale canon Battle Tech. Hopefully this missing weapon space in MWO mechs is reconsidered and accounted for someday.

Edited by Lightfoot, 25 July 2016 - 07:33 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Just so you understand what I am getting at. The Stalker and Warhawk will typically carry all Large size energy weapons on their hardpoints. Like a Stalker with 6x Large Lasers. The Warhammer and Grasshopper will likely carry 2 to 3 Large energy weapons and the rest Medium or Small or carry only Medium size energy weapons. They lack the ability to run anything more than that and stay cool enough in combat.

But because MWO has tiny modular weapons that do not reflect their actual tonnage/ volume, the Stalker and Warhawk get the Large energy weapon volume for free and the 70 ton Warhammer and Grasshopper are made larger than two 85 ton Assault class mechs. And it is an error in calculations because the true volume of the weapon tonnage these mechs carry was left out of the Re-Scale equation.

[Nightbird]

The volume of the mechs is wrong, if the locust is 20 tons, then a mech with the volume of the atlas but the same density as the locust would be 300 tons. If mechs are scaled by volume instead of front and side profile, the lights will be much larger and the weapon sizes will not seem that different.

[Lightfoot]

70 ton mechs the size of Assaults is wrong. Look at any other MechWarrior game or Battle Tech source. The different Class mechs all have distinct attributes in size and target size. It has to be that way due to the increase in load-outs and armor/structure as the tonnage goes up. Mechs like the Shadow Cat really show the proof of this since over 25% of it's mass is in the Gauss Rifle, but in MWO the right arm is tiny, so much that it looks weird, not like a Shadow Cat.

Then you look at the shrinkage of the Catapult which can often carry two Gauss Rifles and you realize there is no balance formula other than to quirk it up.

[Lightfoot]

You see, you take a Heavy over an Assault because it has a smaller forward facing target size than an Assault. If you are a good pilot, you can challenge the Assaults with better deflection of damage due to target size and slightly better speed. If the Heavies are taller or bigger than an Assault, there is no reason to use it since the Assault is better armored and has a massive load-out potential.

Players will soon pick up on the fact that most of the humanoid heavies (Warhammer, Grasshopper, Black Knight, etc.) are larger targets than mechs 15 to 20 tons heavier and drop them, if MWO players are anything like MechWarrior 3 and MechWarrior 4 players. So there needs to be some type of set characteristics in size that separate the 4 mech Classes, and not merge them.

[DAEDALOS513]

Lightfoot, on 26 July 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Then you look at the shrinkage of the Catapult which can often carry two Gauss Rifles and you realize there is no balance formula other than to quirk it up.

THANK YOU, I've been saying this since the beginning! This patch was more of a nerf/quirk pass and a way to appease the great MWO populace which in fact, are, heavy and assault pilots.

I don't care what math they applied or how accurate PGI supposedly was in their rescaling... for all PRACTICAL purposes, the rescale makes no sense other than as a nerf/quirk pass.