47 replies to this topic

[jss78]

I'd say max or near-max armour is the norm. There are precisely three cases where I might trim some armour.

Head. If I need a few points off the free an even half-ton, this is where I go first. I regularly run about 8-12 points of head armour, and it's rarely hurt me. Headshots are very rare, I die of them less than one game in a hundred.

Arms without weapons. Aka. "shield arms". Here you can safely remove armour, sometimes a lot. How much I personally remove depends on the size of the arms. Some 'mechs have very spindly arms that don't catch a lot of fire (e.g. Hunchback, Cicada), so I feel armour in a shield-arm is dead weight. Other 'mechs have large and effective shield arms (e.g. Shadow Hawk 2K), and I put quite a bit of armour in them. Rule of thumb: if you don't occasionally lose that shield arm, you're packing too much armour in it.

Legs. I often trim a little from the legs, but this depends. I never do this on lights: the faster you go, the more "leg happy" enemies get. Other 'mechs I feel can get away with this. I have about a thousand games in my Shadow Hawks, and I typically run my legs at about 40 points (down from 52), and I rarely lose a leg. Some 'mechs have huge legs that catch a lot of fire, because of their basic geometry: e.g. Crabs. I always run full leg armour on these.

All torso sections always at full armour. (Though a rare special case: I think I've seen some people who run an STD-engined build with a full, empty shield side, also have the shield-side side torso with slightly reduced armour.)

[mailin]

Megameatloaf, on 28 July 2016 - 02:03 AM, said:

Also, this is a great thread in general. I primarily run Spiders/Cicadas and I'm forever trying to decide between armor/engine/firepower. This has helped me narrow things down a bit. Thanks guys!

On Spiders you want to run the biggest engine (usually you can) and max armor on legs. You can shave a bit off the left arm (unused). I also shave some off the heads of all of my lights. I can't remember the last time I was headshotted in a light. This is because I am constantly moving unless the enemy has no idea where I am.

Another reason for not shaving armor off of legs on a light is clearly evident on the Spider. Sometimes you will jump and not leave enough fuel for the landing. The legs on a light with jump jets, or any light for that matter can take a bit of a beating. To minimize the risk of legging yourself through a poorly timed jump, max the armor on your legs.

Regarding engine size. For IS lights speed takes the place of armor. A lot of shots miss fast moving lights due to their speed. Always run the biggest XL engine you can on a light, unless it is for a specific *crazy* build. I seem to remember someone with a video of a Spider that went at the speed of an assault. This is not recommended!

Also, if you have a light with an XL that is ammo dependent, do not put a CASE on your mech. A case is useless with an XL, so save the tonnage.

One more thing about lights. IS lights have removable and addable jump jets. Typically I run between 2 and 4 jump jets on a light. This can free up some weight for armor, weapons or engines.

[Satan n stuff]

Wintersdark, on 27 July 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

Second, getting a shot on a cockpit isn't uncommon. Getting multiple shots there can be. A lot of mechs can manage 30pt pinpoint front loaded hits (amoungst other things, think dual gauss) - while worrying about people getting awesome shot deliberately is silly, even at higher levels of play, the reality is there's a decent chance that a quick shot at the CT can end up hitting your cockpit. Having 31+ total HP there prevents that from being a one-shot kill. Note that it's technically possible for a dual gauss hit to a fully armored cockpit to one shot you (due to crit damage 15% carrythrough) that's very, very rare as it relies on lucky RNG *AND* a lucky hit. So, you want to be able to survive getting hit in the face at least once. This is particularly relevant if you're newer and do silly things like overheat *ever*. Then you *definitely* want to be able to eat a shot in the face.

Due to the nature of critical hits in this game any build that can reliably put 30 damage in one spot can in fact get a headshot instakill. Each critical hit deals some of it's damage to internal structure. Typically 2 critical hits are needed to oneshot a cockpit with 30 pinpoint frontloaded damage, the sole exception is when the second projectile that registers a hit is an AC/20 slug.
Triple PPC and/or AC/10 hits have the best chance to get a critical headshot kill because two out of the three hits will damage internal structure and critical hits deal their full damage regardless of how little damage got past the armor.

[Wintersdark]

Satan n stuff, on 28 July 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Due to the nature of critical hits in this game any build that can reliably put 30 damage in one spot can in fact get a headshot instakill. Each critical hit deals some of it's damage to internal structure. Typically 2 critical hits are needed to oneshot a cockpit with 30 pinpoint frontloaded damage, the sole exception is when the second projectile that registers a hit is an AC/20 slug.
Triple PPC and/or AC/10 hits have the best chance to get a critical headshot kill because two out of the three hits will damage internal structure and critical hits deal their full damage regardless of how little damage got past the armor.

I said that, above, "note that dual Gauss..."

It's very unlikely, though, and in the context of the post it wasnt worth going into detail about.

[Koniving]

Hunka Junk, on 27 July 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Where can you get this kind of information? I always see that little bit of data when I die about what was hitting me before I died, and it makes me want to see the whole list of what hit me in the entire match. Likewise, knowing what I hit, with what weapons, and for what damage would be great.

Profile
Stats

Take note: It is accumulated stats. It could be he just fired the LRM-20 twice in his MWO lifetime and got that many hits.

Satan n stuff, on 28 July 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Due to the nature of critical hits in this game any build that can reliably put 30 damage in one spot can in fact get a headshot instakill. Each critical hit deals some of it's damage to internal structure. Typically 2 critical hits are needed to oneshot a cockpit with 30 pinpoint frontloaded damage, the sole exception is when the second projectile that registers a hit is an AC/20 slug.
Triple PPC and/or AC/10 hits have the best chance to get a critical headshot kill because two out of the three hits will damage internal structure and critical hits deal their full damage regardless of how little damage got past the armor.

Keep in mind, lowering cockpit armor is a common practice.
I usually knock off 2 to 12 points. Sometimes 16 points if it is hard to hit.

[Satan n stuff]

Wintersdark, on 28 July 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

I said that, above, "note that dual Gauss..."

It's very unlikely, though, and in the context of the post it wasnt worth going into detail about.

For dual Gauss it's a 14% chance, for a triple PPC and/or AC/10 build it's around 25%, that's pretty significant.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 28 July 2016 - 04:40 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Satan n stuff, on 28 July 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

For dual Gauss it's a 14% chance, for a triple PPC and/or AC/10 build it's around 25%, that's pretty significant.

Still very unlikely, and also not relevant in the slightest in relation to my post.

I well understand how it works.

But, because we're here: while by raw numbers triple ppc/ac10 builds have a higher chance of scoringthe two crits required, getting hit is MUCH more likely via dual Gauss. Range, projectile speed, convergence. Combinations of ac10/ppc have very close projectile speed but not the same, making even accidental converged cockpit shots unlikely, and PPC' have well documented hitreg issues the more you fire at once.

On the other hand, dual Gauss is a much more common build overall.

But it doesn't matter. The point here is that if you shave cockpit armor, you increase the likelihood that a single errant shot hitting your cockpit will kill you outright.

You cannot remove the chance entirely, due to the crit deal, but you can make it only a danger through a lucky shot that also scores a lucky pair of crits.

Shave cockpit armor, and it isn't just a percentage of heavy ppfld hits, but all of them, and ever more arty strikes because it requires less damage to kill you, so a hit on your mech ever further from your cockpit will still do sufficient damage to kill.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Hunka Junk, on 27 July 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Where can you get this kind of information? I always see that little bit of data when I die about what was hitting me before I died, and it makes me want to see the whole list of what hit me in the entire match. Likewise, knowing what I hit, with what weapons, and for what damage would be great.

Go to your profile (top of this page) and a lot of your stats will be there broken down for you.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Void Angel, on 27 July 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

Do not listen to the people telling you to ignore LRMs. While they are extremely difficult to use against high-level players, they are an essential weapon system to learn, and are frankly quite useful for farming up c-bills when you start playing the game - you know, when you most need to farm them.

There are interactions between LRMs and other factors. A lot of other factors: AMS, ECM, Radar Deprivation, cover, player tactics at various skill levels, player weapon choices (also varies generally by skill level,) available cover on various maps, and more. These interactions are more complex than any other weapon in the game, which makes balancing LRMs smoothly problematic. As a result, you'll have great success (once you get used to them) at first, then start to underperform as you make your way up. After you (not your opponents) progress past the middle skill levels, LRMs become viable again, though generally less effective than direct-fire options.

For these reasons, it is vital that you learn the ins and outs of LRM use as a new player, to avoid both a learned helplessness in the face of LRM fire, and to prevent an unreasonably high opinion of the weapon's effectiveness. Use them, learn them, and keep using them for as long as you enjoy the play style and get good results. Just be prepared for how the weapon's relative effectiveness will change over time.

This is why I want to have one, to learn from it. The only Mech I can use now is my "Shame Bear" who can carry 3 x LRM 15's and one LRM 10. I've only tried him out 3 times but I tried to do an almost direct fire with him. 45 LRMs can ruin your day added to his AC 20 and PPC. My main use of LRMs were also for Suppression. I'd link an LRM5 with an ER LL for instance. The idea being that as the enemy was being shot with a laser, he was also hearing the missile warnings going off. So hopefully he would be moving to avoid missiles instead of finding and shooting back at me.

I forgot to ask about the spread on the SRM4 so thanks for the "UP". It seemed to me that since LRM 15's has a smaller spread than a 20 and a 10 less than a 15 etc then maybe the same was true with SRMs. I'm learning to love SRMS. I'm playing a Mech I thought I never would, my Jenner IIC. I put in a smaller engine and that gives me six SRM 6's for 72 damage with 5 tons of ammo. Recently, I've been doing a lot of damage with it and I'm liking it (OMG, give it an ECM, lol). http://mwo.smurfy-ne...db8d70c7ce92ce5

I'm going to try the SRM4's which also brings the question, what do you REALLY think the effective range of them are.

And is there a place where they record your games like they are doing now during the Viper event?

Edited by LikeUntoGod, 28 July 2016 - 07:08 AM.

[SirSoggyDog]

Even with artillery, I've only been head shot without head armor twice, and both times were in a locust. That's two games of 1500 or so, which I don't think is justification for losing 1/2 ton that could otherwise be used for more firepower. The amount of times I've been headshot from other sources can be counted on a hand. (If you want to cut down on what will probably be less than .5% of your deaths, then you could run head armor, otherwise it just isn't needed and will serve you better in the form of another heatsink or ton of ammo when combined with minor trimming of the limbs.)

As stated earlier, leg armor on a light is pretty important, but as a rule of thumb, the slower you go, the more you can strip. Keep an eye out for large leg structure quirks, as they allow you to get away with even less. (My hunchy SP only has half leg armor, and it hasn't been a frequent problem).

Jss is right about full arm armor usually being wasted tonnage. Many mechs get no use out of their arms, and even more don't have the hitboxes to justify it. (On many mechs, by the time the arm is stripped the torso connected to it will be well and destroyed.) However, the one point to make here is to avoid stripping so much armor that your arms become open very early in the match, as any mech with structure damage starts smoking and tends to draw more fire.


Also, since nobody's mentioned it, make sure you "frontload" by stripping some armor in the rear torsos and putting it on the front. The 15+ points that come standard on most mechs is really quite excessive for most roles.

Edited by SirSoggyDog, 28 July 2016 - 07:24 AM.

[p4r4g0n]

It has been said before and it is worth repeating ... the effectiveness of LRMs is almost entirely dependent on the skill of the target. This in a nutshell explains the declining utility of this weapon system as you tier up and meet more skilled and better equipped opponents.

That said it has its place, however, for me it is not generally a primary weapon.

[Metus regem]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Where do players fall on this? It seems like a lot of light Mechs go light on armor while assaults go heavy. (duh)

I noticed that a lot of Mechs listed have much lower armor to gain more DPS. In a military naval theme, lights are like WW2 PT Boats and some mediums and even heavys are like "Pocket Battleships". PT boats were built of plywood and were all engines and weapons. They relied on speed. They remind me of the fast lights with little armor who simply cannot be hit.

Always, always run full armour, unless you need to drop a few points to get to the nearest 1/2 ton.

Quote

Also, any hints on hitting with SRMs?

SRM's need a bit of a lead on the target, not too much, as you are already in knife fight range. The other thing I say is more or less mandatory is Artemis on SRM/6. I also recommend it for SRM/4, but it is debatable. The next big thing is sizes of SRM's, 6's give you the most bang, but they have the most tonnage and crit requirements, they also have the longest reload times, on top of not being efficient with ammo consumption. They also have the worst spread with out Artemis.... When ever someone talks about using SRM's I always suggest going with 4's, they give you a good balance on tonnage, crit, reload times and ammo consumption rates out of all of them, on top of that, they are much more accurate than 6's, but not as good as 2's.

Edited by Metus regem, 28 July 2016 - 08:00 AM.

[mailin]

LikeUntoGod, on 28 July 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

I forgot to ask about the spread on the SRM4


I'm going to try the SRM4's which also brings the question, what do you REALLY think the effective range of them are.

The spread on srm4s is tighter. It has been compared to the spread for SRM6s with artemis, but without the added cost, weight and space per launcher.

The effective range on srms is stated. They fire in a straight line and if they do not hit anything withing range, they explode. So, unquirked, max is 270m. At 270m they explode.

On a side note, I love taking my Stalker 5M out sometimes. It has 5 lrm5s which I chain fire. They don't necessarily do a lot of damage or get a lot of kills, but they are very good at keeping less experienced players cowering under cover. They also have the added benefit of making enemy AMS units burn through the ammo.

Edited by mailin, 28 July 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[Void Angel]

LikeUntoGod, on 28 July 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

This is why I want to have one, to learn from it. The only Mech I can use now is my "Shame Bear" who can carry 3 x LRM 15's and one LRM 10. I've only tried him out 3 times but I tried to do an almost direct fire with him.

The optimal engagement range for LRMs is about 300 meters - from just behind the front line of your team. This gives the enemy no time to react and reach cover while still giving you enough room that they can't just sprint forward and negate your fire. However, be advised that even with Clan Autocannons, mixing LRMs with brawling weapons is disadvised. One of the core skills you need in a brawler is torso twisting to spread damage - this is essential in assault 'mechs - and being required to stare at your target to maintain missile lock does not allow that to happen.

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 28 July 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The optimal engagement range for LRMs is about 300 meters - from just behind the front line of your team. This gives the enemy no time to react and reach cover while still giving you enough room that they can't just sprint forward and negate your fire. However, be advised that even with Clan Autocannons, mixing LRMs with brawling weapons is disadvised. One of the core skills you need in a brawler is torso twisting to spread damage - this is essential in assault 'mechs - and being required to stare at your target to maintain missile lock does not allow that to happen.

I probably shouldn't, because this is more advanced, but:

[EDIT: CLAN] LRM's can be used in brawling extremely effectively, but certain things are required.

First: you need 4+ lrm10 or 6+lrm5. It's essential to maintain 100% cockpit shake. You need cool down modules.

Second, you need sufficient Direct Fire weaponry to kill: LRM's are second day here, not primary.

Third, you need to practice twisting while retaining missile lock. As quoted above, you CANNOT stare if you're being fired at, and you need to maintain an optimal engagement distance, around 200-300m. You still do damage inside 180m, but it falls off fast. (This is why it only works with CLRM's; IS side you do zero damage <180m)

A Mad Dog sporting 5 ERSL or SPL and a set of lrm5's for example is an extremely effective brawler.

Now, I assume you're talking Spirit Bear here. If that's the case, judicious use of MASC is required to twist far and fast enough, and to move around quickly enough. This is still possible, but very hard, as there's a real risk of damaging yourself with MASC.

Honestly, it's a waste of a Spirit Bear, though, given how difficult it is to do well.

Whatever you do, don't take a 100t assault and stand in the back. See Void's "Timidity is not a tactic" link.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 July 2016 - 11:38 AM.

[Wintersdark]

jss78, on 28 July 2016 - 02:36 AM, said:

I'd say max or near-max armour is the norm. There are precisely three cases where I might trim some armour.

Head. If I need a few points off the free an even half-ton, this is where I go first. I regularly run about 8-12 points of head armour, and it's rarely hurt me. Headshots are very rare, I die of them less than one game in a hundred.

Arms without weapons. Aka. &quot;shield arms&quot;. Here you can safely remove armour, sometimes a lot. How much I personally remove depends on the size of the arms. Some 'mechs have very spindly arms that don't catch a lot of fire (e.g. Hunchback, Cicada), so I feel armour in a shield-arm is dead weight. Other 'mechs have large and effective shield arms (e.g. Shadow Hawk 2K), and I put quite a bit of armour in them. Rule of thumb: if you don't occasionally lose that shield arm, you're packing too much armour in it.

Legs. I often trim a little from the legs, but this depends. I never do this on lights: the faster you go, the more &quot;leg happy&quot; enemies get. Other 'mechs I feel can get away with this. I have about a thousand games in my Shadow Hawks, and I typically run my legs at about 40 points (down from 52), and I rarely lose a leg. Some 'mechs have huge legs that catch a lot of fire, because of their basic geometry: e.g. Crabs. I always run full leg armour on these.

All torso sections always at full armour. (Though a rare special case: I think I've seen some people who run an STD-engined build with a full, empty shield side, also have the shield-side side torso with slightly reduced armour.)

To link some posts, this one here is excellent, and is related to the earlier (Koniving? Or Void, sorry, I forget, and it's too much of a PITA to look on my phone) post about iteration of builds.

Have a shield arm, and never lose it? Reduce the armor a few points. Die from random head damage(arty, splash from lasers, etc)? Increase head armor a few points.

Not big changes, but you want to consider what something is for and if it's working for you or wasting tonnage. A shield arm is there to be destroyed. That's it's purpose. Make sure it gets destroyed


The same applies to ammo: if you never run out, you are carrying too much.

This is where practice and play will find how to optimize builds for you, and will work better than copying meta builds.

[Void Angel]

Wintersdark, on 28 July 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

I probably shouldn't, because this is more advanced, but:

[EDIT: CLAN] LRM's can be used in brawling extremely effectively, but certain things are required.

First: you need 4+ lrm10 or 6+lrm5. It's essential to maintain 100% cockpit shake. You need cool down modules.

Second, you need sufficient Direct Fire weaponry to kill: LRM's are second day here, not primary.

Third, you need to practice twisting while retaining missile lock. As quoted above, you CANNOT stare if you're being fired at, and you need to maintain an optimal engagement distance, around 200-300m. You still do damage inside 180m, but it falls off fast. (This is why it only works with CLRM's; IS side you do zero damage <180m)

A Mad Dog sporting 5 ERSL or SPL and a set of lrm5's for example is an extremely effective brawler.

Now, I assume you're talking Spirit Bear here. If that's the case, judicious use of MASC is required to twist far and fast enough, and to move around quickly enough. This is still possible, but very hard, as there's a real risk of damaging yourself with MASC.

Honestly, it's a waste of a Spirit Bear, though, given how difficult it is to do well.

Whatever you do, don't take a 100t assault and stand in the back. See Void's "Timidity is not a tactic" link.

Yeah, I considered talking about that, and discarded the idea for the same reason. The tactic also doesn't work as well against experienced people who just hug you and beat on your side torsos - it's really a brawling-range fire support rather than a brawler.

This showcases some of the interactions that I think need to be changed with LRMs - but that is a separate topic.

[Grinster]

Wintersdark, on 27 July 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

They removed artillery hitting your cockpit directly. It still splashes, and the splashes can one-shot a cockpit with stripped armor.

If you have maximum cockpit armor, you cannot be killed by an arty strike.

As a veteran of the lowest tier, I can say that I see arty strikes once every 100 games or so. As Wintersdark said however, always play as if you are against experts. Drop in group queue once in a while to get a feel for arty strikes being used in anger.

[Aerei]

Armor is a resource, same as anything else in this game. In this case, it's how often you can get hit. This can mean different things, in my opinion, for different mechs.

I'm surprised not many people have mentioned the range and role of the mech where the question of armor is being applied to. The mech class you choose, and optimal range, can heavily impact just how much you're getting shot at.

For brawling mechs, or any mechs leading a charge, you really can't avoid getting hit. All you can do is control where you get hit with torso twisting, jump tapping, etc.The more hits on your shield side, the better. This also applies to light mechs that rush in up close, as most people can probably at least get a lucky hit on you--scrimping on armor anywhere but the head probably isn't a good idea, and even then...don't get rid of more than you have to.

On the other hand, I would argue you can afford to shave some armor off shield sides, the head, or even a little on the legs, on a poking mech that's designed to work angles and hit from reasonably far away. These mechs, ideally, want some cover nearby anyway, so getting hit is less of a guarantee, and armor become more of a buffer to save you from mistakes. If removing half a ton of armor allows you to put out more damage, increase your speed to affect your positioning, and thus give you a favorable spot where you might get hit less, I don't see the problem with it. That said removing armor from the torsos, the side with your weapons, or an excessive amount from your legs isn't a good idea. Removing armor like this requires balancing with a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Edited by Aerei, 28 July 2016 - 12:57 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I will always go for my weapon loadouts first.

Then I put in an engine with acceptable levels of heatsinks.

Then i try to work out armor.

I always max Torso armor. I generally skimp on arms and legs. And ill shave 1 off my head armor if i need to make even tonnage.

(Some of my mechs have 0-4 arm armor.... Even on my assaults and heavies).