49 replies to this topic

[Chuck Jager]

If we had 4-6 vs AI I think the missions could be made to make roles mandatory or hard to side step. General PVP with very random teams would be to hard to enforce. PVP kinda needs lowest common denominator so folks who have never danced together can at least keep the simple beat.

[Brom96]

I must agree with SQW. As I play in Ravens the most, there is certainly both the role and oportunity to support the team, if the team is willing to make that suppor viable - that is if the team survives until you manage to scout positions . I usualy snipe, call targets even if I don't have a lock on them or do a headless chicken approach and drop UAV or Airstrike on enemy heavies who often cluster themselves nicely. In 3L I can get, rarely, up to 400 damage, usualy just aroudn 200, which is good enough sine I alvays manage to distract the enemy. In support role, you are succesfull if you can keep, say, Direwolf trying to chase or shoot you, and not join the main fight. In other builds I can usualy get just over 100 damage per play, but it is compensated by scouting, uav, etc...

Support role is often marginalised... Take for instance Polar, as an example. Even in "open" section, there are hills that obstruct a view. When playing in mediums on this map, unless I have one of our scouts out there, I will miss whole enemy heavy lance creeping on me just behind that small hill on my right side. I can agree that there is too much gung ho involved in combat. Up to the point of insults and other Voip abuse toward lights for "not dying warrior's death" or other nonsense.

And please, do not get me started about scouting in faction combat.

[Darian DelFord]

Johnny Z, on 22 August 2016 - 11:09 PM, said:

I seen a lot of topics about lights being weak lately. I totally disagree, they are quite good to pilot. I think there are still 1 or 2 way over powered in fact.

Nothing against you Johnny but............

Darian's Now Standard Response to any Light Mech is Overpowered Thread or post.


Learn to Play , Learn to Aim, Get Some Skill, and Git Gud!!

[SQW]

I've always felt people are too bias against QP. Like everything, some of the best and worst games in terms of tactics I've played over the years have been in QPs and most fall in between - all it takes is a person who knows what's going on with a mic and the 12-man rabble can often become a reasonable fighting force.

The fear of not having a smart LRM boat or rolling with noob team in QP has lead many light vet pilots to favor self-reliant combat roles exclusively. The end result is few lights really stick with support role long enough to figure out the nuances. Most of the light vets unfortunately thinks like adamts01 who genuinely believe the only light mech worth having is the one that's shooting (not wrong but not the only way either) and that LRM users are all useless.

Given how the MWO community largely forces LRM boats to "get their own locks", there's little incentive or opportunity for two role to work together as intended. I've seen more Victors getting MVPs than I have hearing ACH pilots calling targets for LRMs or hold fire long enough to allow a few extra missile volleys to land. When the two roles work together, it's a thing of beauty and reflects the very best qualities of MWO.

It's easy to blame PGI for not creating the perfect situation for role play in MWO but some of us also need to be honest that we light pilots largely chose the easiest option of relying on just ourselves in an aggressive role than risk the hassle of trying to team work with less competent random players.

Edited by SQW, 23 August 2016 - 02:46 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

SQW, on 23 August 2016 - 02:38 AM, said:

The fear of not having a smart LRM boat or rolling with noob team in QP has lead many light vet pilots to favor self-reliant combat roles exclusively. . Most of the light vets unfortunately thinks like adamts01 who genuinely believe the only light mech worth having is the one that's shooting (not wrong but not the only way either) and that LRM users are all useless noobs.(Not Novakaine)

need to be honest that we light pilots largely chose the easiest option of relying on just ourselves in a aggressive role

A good offensive light pilot can sway a battle. Especially if the enemy team ignores him. The firepower may not be that high and lets face it... most IS mech have less than a 30 spread alpha...... however that less than 30 alpha is potent against heavies and assaults who front load their armor and then are killed from the back due to poor situational awareness which brings about cries of OP.

[Navid A1]

Darian DelFord, on 23 August 2016 - 02:45 AM, said:

A good offensive light pilot can sway a battle. Especially if the enemy team ignores him. The firepower may not be that high and lets face it... most IS mech have less than a 30 spread alpha...... however that less than 30 alpha is potent against heavies and assaults who front load their armor and then are killed from the back due to poor situational awareness which brings about cries of OP.

That only works when the rest of the team can hold its ground for 2 seconds and does not melt as soon as enemy sees them.
Unfortunately, most teams now in MWO tend to just disintegrate in the first second of a firefight.

[Clownwarlord]

I wish there was a way you could get paid for bringing an AMS and shooting down lrms and other missiles.

[SQW]

Darian DelFord, on 23 August 2016 - 02:45 AM, said:

A good offensive light pilot can sway a battle. Especially if the enemy team ignores him. The firepower may not be that high and lets face it... most IS mech have less than a 30 spread alpha...... however that less than 30 alpha is potent against heavies and assaults who front load their armor and then are killed from the back due to poor situational awareness which brings about cries of OP.

Assuming none of the opponent are watching their flank/rear to allow you to sneak in and alpha multiple times AND bad enough at aiming for your leg that you got away is the best case scenario for an aggressive light. By the same token, I can also assume I'm lucky enough to be paired with a competent team of mixed brawler and LRM carriers and that my narc will help take out 2 assaults before they even got into range. In fact, narcing a flanking ACH on open ground is a joy to watch for the next 20sec or however long it lasts under LRMs.

I'm not refuting the power of a competent light in an aggressive role - most pilots still aren't good enough shot when it comes to fast moving buzzards. In fact, I admit a good ACH is probably more consistent in performance than my support RVN. However, that edge in consistency is not enough for me to forgo the joy of experiencing multi-role team work and choose instead to run in gun blazing every time.

My point is, role playing as a support light is definitely doable RIGHT NOW and not as alien a thought as most light vets will tell the newcomers; just wish PGI can tweak the reward system to further foster such thinking so it's not regarded as heresy.

[Besh]

SQW, on 23 August 2016 - 03:06 AM, said:

Assuming none of the opponent are watching their flank/rear to allow you to sneak in and alpha multiple times AND bad enough at aiming for your leg that you got away is the best case scenario for an aggressive light. By the same token, I can also assume I'm lucky enough to be paired with a competent team of mixed brawler and LRM carriers and that my narc will help take out 2 assaults before they even got into range. In fact, narcing a flanking ACH on open ground is a joy to watch for the next 20sec or however long it lasts under LRMs.

I'm not refuting the power of a competent light in an aggressive role - most pilots still aren't good enough shot when it comes to fast moving buzzards. In fact, I admit a good ACH is probably more consistent in performance than my support RVN. However, that edge in consistency is not enough for me to forgo the joy of experiencing multi-role team work and choose instead to run in gun blazing every time.

My point is, role playing as a support light is definitely doable RIGHT NOW and not as alien a thought as most light vets will tell the newcomers; just wish PGI can tweak the reward system to further foster such thinking so it's not regarded as heresy.

I think there is no doubt about Light scouting being doable now . But I also think you can not simply put the entire Class into that bucket . There are Lights Chassis that seem to be really, really well suited for scouting, and others which simply are not .

Imho, trying to get a Combat oriented Light Pilot, who has specialized in a Chassis, or maybe even a Variant, to go and learn piloting a Scout properly will not work in many cases, no matter the incentives .

Also, consider the current State of the Light Class in general . While scouting is totally doable ( also was before the recent nerfiesta/Rescale etc...), the combat viability of MANY Light Chassis has decreased rapidly ( or, depending on Chassis/Variant and use [Comp/QP/FW ]) : has notched Light Piloting from Hard mode to *Ultra-Hardcore-Survival_nosaves* mode ). So, just out of curiosity: why exactly should the Scouting Play get special Love ?

Speaking for myself, I ab-so-lute-ly LOVE knife fighting at 165 kp/h . I had to readjust quite a LOT with the recent Changes, but I am getting there, and am able to pull off good Games again, even with having risen in Tier lately . There is nothing in MW:O that comes even close to the experience I get in the LCT - E . I do pilot other Classes, 'Mechs, sking at some doing better at others...but my real LOVE is for the 165 kp/h Samba .

Now, if you would make Light "scouting" more interesting, id give it more of a Try here and there....but it would NEVER be as much fun to me as what I described above . On the other Hand, there are some Medium Chassis who are JUST as suited to that Role as some Lights .

Edited by Besh, 23 August 2016 - 11:24 AM.

[Deathlike]

I don't mind supporting the team, but mostly offense is the most reliable way.

It's not as if you get loads of C-bills for getting the drop on a target to help an LRM boat. It's not worth the health and safety of a Light in most cases to accomplish this (I mean, you have to be in Streakboat range to do such work at times).

So... I totally blame the Paulconomy.

[Ultimax]

This is a game focused on combat, not looking at things.

Scouting is useful, scouting with actual weapons is significantly more useful.

Conclusion: Continue scouting, bring actual useful weapons and please stop erroneously thinking "supporting your team" means "bringing NARC for LRM boats".

NARC only supports LRM mechs, its pretty much irrelevant for every other build - that means you are not supporting your team, you are supporting a limited number of mech builds that may not even be on your team.

Edited by Ultimax, 23 August 2016 - 12:22 PM.

[SQW]

Besh, on 23 August 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

I think there is no doubt about Light scouting being doable now . But I also think you can not simply put the entire Class into that bucket . There are Lights Chassis that seem to be really, really well suited for scouting, and others which simply are not .

Imho, trying to get a Combat oriented Light Pilot, who has specialized in a Chassis, or maybe even a Variant, to go and learn piloting a Scout properly will not work in many cases, no matter the incentives .

Yes, I agree that there are only a few chassis that can do what I'm proposing. I mentioned a few posts above that I don't expect every light pilot to be a dedicated support nor would I want to see 4 support oriented light mechs on the team either. It's just that aggressive light mentality is SO dominant, few actually take the time or effort to play in such way to benefit the team rather than maximize his/her own score thus leading to beta/charlie lance play in such way that doesn't rely on light support. Whenever I see a RVN-3L armed with 2ERLL, I just shake my head. I know they did it for the ecm but seeing a dedicated support mech with narc traits being used purely for sniping always makes me a little sad.

As for the "offense is the most reliable" and "narc only supports LRMs", I think that is pretty narrow definition for what a light support can contribute to the team. For example, last night's Mining Collective game put me in a pure brawl team - one LRM5. A good narc on their ECM Shadowcat and Charlie lance meant the team knew exactly where the biggest threats were and maneuvered accordingly.

With the Shadowcat, someone on the team comfortable with his skills immediately called dibs and went hunting thus turning a normally deadly sniper into useless tonnage almost immediately. I don't think I need to explain how advantageous seeing the entire enemy chalie lance marked on the HUB can be. The end result was 12-6. My team was good and knew how to focus fire. However, had the narc info not be available to them, I doubt the fight would have proceeded as cleanly - that Shadowcat would definitely caused no end of headache with the typical hide and poke shenanigan.

Would I have contributed better had I been equipped with a SRM6 instead of Narc or just 2ERLLs? I doubt it. Would we have won if I was running my RVN-2X instead? Maybe; a good support is not a silver bullet. Personally I like to think a support light is not there to just tag or spot but as a multiplier for the other 11 team mates. If done right, boosting the effectiveness of 11 other mechs through good intel should theoretically more than make up for the absence of an ACH/LCT.

Edited by SQW, 23 August 2016 - 05:21 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

You said support.

The Cyclops is support.

Good enough for you?

[Idealsuspect]

Navid A1, on 22 August 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Anything outside of pure damage is not rewarded.

reason?
Paulconomy is the answer.

PGI is afraid players might abuse the system to farm rewards.... or earn too much (lol).
Yet they don't have an idea about HOW players can abuse the system.
They are just like: Screw the rewards... that is the only way to be sure it is not abused.

Man are you crazy what you say ... now kill an UAV give 1500cbills, i remember during 6 months killing an uavs was rewarded by 150 cbils.

Only PGI know what is good for MWO... not god, not us, not ants, not alien superior race but only PGI !

[SQW]

Ted Wayz, on 23 August 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

You said support.

The Cyclops is support.

Good enough for you?

That group radar boost is interesting. Will need a few games against it to see how powerful it really is. However, keeping a 35 ton hidden to scout/spot and parking a 90 ton next to your lrm boats at the back just to give them radar boost is not the same thing.

[Ted Wayz]

SQW, on 23 August 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

That group radar boost is interesting. Will need a few games against it to see how powerful it really is. However, keeping a 35 ton hidden to scout/spot and parking a 90 ton next to your lrm boats at the back just to give them radar boost is not the same thing.

My point is support is a broad category that can be filled by all weight classes, not just lights. For instance close support is an excellent role for a direct fire medium.

Don't believe me? Look up what a Steiner Scout looks like.

[SQW]

Ted Wayz, on 23 August 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

My point is support is a broad category that can be filled by all weight classes, not just lights. For instance close support is an excellent role for a direct fire medium.

Don't believe me? Look up what a Steiner Scout looks like.

In MWO there's fire support (LRM), light support for scouting and spotting plus a few odd ones like the Atlas DDC and maybe the new Cyclops. There's no such thing as medium close support in MWO - that's just a medium mech with guns shooting. An ECM mech like the Shadowcat with gauss is also not support mechs - that's a harassment/sniper.

My definition of a light support is that the primary loadout is not to deal damage. That means UAV, ECM, BAP, Narc, TAG and even AMS come before weapons, staying out of sight and remain hidden for as long as possible in order to give your team the best intel.

The fact that non-shooting activity is rewarded so little gives new comers the impression that Face Light build is the only viable way thus diminishing the possibility of team work for everyone. I'm not even advocating for equal support/aggression build in light - 1:3 is plenty in most cases - but as you can see from this thread, most light vets refuse to even entertain the idea that a non-shooting scout can be as valuable to the team as a one loaded with guns.

Edited by SQW, 23 August 2016 - 07:30 PM.

[Ace Selin]

Seamus Z Harper, on 22 August 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

Giant Robots are meant for shooting.

Agreed. Most people want to play Giant Shooting Stompy Robots

[SQW]

Ace Selin, on 23 August 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

Agreed. Most people want to play Giant Shooting Stompy Robots

And we blame PGI for making an arena shooter.

Again, nothing wrong with pew pew but also reward those who contribute to the fight without going full rambo equally; we might even start seeing some proper team work.

[Dingo Battler]

There is no support role in this game. At best, it is an extremely tertiary objective, popping a UAV to scout enemies in the first 2 minutes is pretty much the cutting edge of it. As such, I don't see any need to reward support.

Lights in the original BT game were used to pin down lances from moving into advantageous positions, lest they leave their back armour open. Obviously, this is very hard to translate to this game.

Then, you have this game, where more or less, the objective is to wipe out the OPFOR. There are no passive buffs, etc. So there is no support role, and thus, nothing to reward.