5 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

When I first read the PTS notes, I found that I was going to have to test a few specific things. I understand the overall cooldown nerf, but this particular statement was a headscratcher.

Quote

Design Notes: We feel that the current values for Weapon Cooldown Modules on the Live servers are too effective, particularly when compared to Range Modules. The above alteration to Weapon Cooldown Module boosts is being made to support the design goals for the new mechanics seen in this PTS, but additionally to better balance the usefulness of Range and Cooldown Modules relative to each other.

This assumes you understand how useful these modules are relative to the weapon in question.


Generally speaking, the cooldown modules bring a significant value over range modules, but only in specific cases. Range modules are usually universally useful, but also less than useful in specific cases. Let's go through these cases, starting with range.


Added range is pretty much useful for any weapon, particularly energy based, but moreso if you have a greater based range. ER Large Lasers of both Clan and IS types benefit more than a Flamer. Noone talks about the Flamer module, because 10% extra of something tiny is still stupidly tiny. So, your problem here is mainly range scaling. It's as simple as that. Long Range shouldn't have too much of a bonus, but Shorter Range needs increased bonuses. Even just 25% increased Flamer Range is at least an improvement over... well... the joke that is the Firestarter Flamer range quirks.


For missiles, this is a mixed bag.

For LRMs to benefit, they would actually need something so stationary and being spotted at 1000+m isn't very productive. Missile velocity is the defining factor. If LRM velocity increased over time (depending on distance traveled), then you could do something... but that's just not the case. That is why LRM usage is optimal closer to slightly further than brawl range to mid range.

Clans Streaks have a greater advantage over IS Streaks... and that in itself is a problem. With the related "tech differential" in that IS is limited to SSRM2s, this presents a major problem. I'm aware the IS SSRM2 has more velocity, but the range on the Clan SSRM6 is a bigger factor. While I'd rather not advocate for a nerf, but Clan SSRM range probably needs to be reduced on the whole while modules boosting the IS SSRM Range needs to be of greater value.

SRM Range is kinda meh for the most part, which is why they generally need a bigger increase in range (we're talking 15% instead of 10%).


For ballistics (dakka), range isn't always a bonus:
Gauss probably benefits the most, but this is inherent to due velocity. Depending on the projectile speed, increasing range doesn't help for slow projectiles. An AC20 doesn't always benefit from this because of that aspect. LBX in general is a special case, because increasing range doesn't help the weapon's spread. If LBX were more like SRMs in spread, then increasing range would be a benefit. However, it's more closer to MG-like benefits... where spread in a Cone of Fire makes the bullets/pellets not hit in a concentrated fashion.


In most instances, cooldown modules are usually a better overall option because of these design flaws/behaviors in existing weapons.


The overall issue with cooldown modules is because 12.5% is a significant change. It's just basic math. If it were lowered to 10% or 7.5% max (for modules), you would still have to adjust ranges on ranges. 5% is too low (it's Fast Fire level, which is nearly negligible) and yes despite having a 10% total "now" (Fast Fire+Cooldown module, before factoring quirks), it can be somewhat unbearable for weapons that have insanely high cooldowns... which are primarily Gauss+PPC.


Cooldown modules are usually cost prohibitive for (heavily) energy based mechs, mainly due to heat generation. One of the things they are used for is quicker upfront bursts of Damage Over Time (DOT) Alphas and then a cooldown period for heat. This is something usually found in Light Mech play, but also in high laservomit situations. Most of it is not sustainable heatwise, but if it kills one target, then usually the tradeoff is worth it. In most builds, this is related to playstyle, as range modules are usually more beneficial in mid to long range trading.


Cooldown modules for missiles are usually more valuable, despite the heat generated. For LRMs, it's just trying to be fire ready at a moment's notice... whereas in SRM/Streaks, you want to keep firing them as long as you have them available.

Cooldown modules for ballistics are universally more useful, and there's no real downside due to heat generation (they are designed to be low heat), and that should be inherently obvious.


There is a reason why certain weapons are taken for particular mechs because of the overreaching quirks. This suggests that some quirks could be toned down instead with some obvious specialization in other instances.


TL;DR
In any case... those thoughts listed in the post demonstrates a lack of understanding of how certain core weapon systems used the modules in the circumstances (whether PTS or the current running game) and learning why the modules are used the way they do is better than just straight nerfing of the cooldown modules themselves. 5% is too harsh... 7.5% is probably more reasonable as with adjustments in other quirk related cooldowns and ranges.
Energy occasionally benefits from cooldown modules (range is more useful generally), but ballistic and missiles benefit greatly from cooldown modules inherantly.


It should be obvious, but I felt the need to explain the specific reasons because of that particular thought process. Modules are not supposed to have universally the same values for a reason... and it should be relatively apparent why.

[Tiantara]

- Well, yes. I agree with some points. Skill for any weapon must differ to make them useful. In same time we have module slot limit, so pilots can't place all what they want in mech. But balancing skills it's a question after balancing whole Energy Draw system. But yes... I try mech under modules and without them to see how result change in end.
Anyway - we have limit with modules slot. So - you have longrange or cooldown, or both but for one weapon only.

Edited by Tiantara, 26 August 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I typically take range modules to better match weapon ranges on mixed weapon systems. On weapons that already have long range, I do not normally add range modules. I do use cooldown modules more often than range simply because it generally allows me to use the weapon in question more often.

I think PGI simply sees the sales of modules and judges their usefulness simply by that.

[Deathlike]

I wanted to bump this, but also add some context to "burst damage".

Burst damage is a concept where you do a lot of damage in a limited span of time. For laservomit, this is normally unsustainable.. where you can fire 2 volleys even with most laservomit builds (2 CLPL+4 CERMED, or 3 LPL + 4/5 MED) will usually reach the heat cap... requiring the player to stop firing or fire half (or less) of its payload when threatened. Usually in this state, the mech is most vulnerable.

In the case of brawling (and other missile based) mechs, you will end up reaching a heat cap at some point, since SRMs generate a significant portion of heat... which isn't entirely sustainable unless you're only firing them (minus an AC20 or so).

For dakka of most types, burst damage is generally very sustainable (generally due to heat). As long as you can shoot at the target within range (based on the speed of the projectile), the exposure time affects DPS greatly, but only of the alpha is significant. One horrible error was when AC2s had ghost heat applied. AC5s were/are more consistent in dealing damage over any period of time (6 AC2s vs 3 AC5s - the AC5s are still a better option because you're not spreading so much damage all over the place). With Ghost Heat and Clan UACs, they become a little more muddy, but even then the Dakka is sustainable. It's not that much different here and regardless of the changes it would be affected the least.


It's important to put into context what the types of damage and weapon usage changes the actual "alpha" math that comes with it. Not all damage is the same... and to try to fit it into one singular number w/o using any context is a massive error.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 August 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Understanding that not all damage is created equal seems to finally be dawning on PGI lately. They are not punishing the spread weapons as much as PPFLD w/ ED, but because of the factors that contribute to this it means ED is going to have to have a different value for basically every weapon. That makes it just as if not more complex than Ghost Heat, the system it is supposed to be simplifying and replacing. If they would apply this logic to heat, cooldowns, range, burn times, etc in an organized and logical fashion then we wouldn't have this mess of a PTS and modules could be tuned using the same principle.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

What I take away from this is that instead of nerfing cooldown modules PGI needs to instead remove range modules for weapons they don't help, or to change it so that range does help (spread for LB's tied to max and optimal range instead of just flat distance from the mech). This would actually make some weapon systems better by giving them modules that increase flight speed of LRM's making them viable further out (because that long travel time makes them easier to ditch), SRM's getting a better choke or flight speed would be nice, higher velocity for normal AC's would also be useful.

That is just my take away. Most things that get better with that added range are Gauss, PPC's, and Lasers from what I can gather while everything else would find it more useful to have spread or speed adjusted instead.