58 replies to this topic

[Hunka Junk]

So you have:

1) An enemy with an ECM. He is slow to target, but can be targeted.

and then you have

2) An enemy with an ECM who appears invisible even though they are standing right in front of you.

Are these the differences between cloaking and jamming?

I don't fully understand why one is targetable and the other is not at all.

[JC Daxion]

I forget the exact range.. 150m? if under that you can target it.. If it is further you need BAP, which extends to 250? (you can also add sensor range module to extend that further, how much i also forget. tag can hit something up to 700m i think?

ECM covers 90m radius i think..

basically fast mechs are moving in and out of the 150 range, which is why it is easier to target slower mechs with ECM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Basically, you missed the times when ECM had a larger radius, covering more than one lance and without having to be close to them.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Hunka Junk, on 02 October 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

So you have:

1) An enemy with an ECM. He is slow to target, but can be targeted.

and then you have

2) An enemy with an ECM who appears invisible even though they are standing right in front of you.

Are these the differences between cloaking and jamming?

I don't fully understand why one is targetable and the other is not at all.

I was thinking about this last night. I carry a Clan probe most of the time or a BAP when possible but I would also swear that something is off on targeting Mechs with ECM. For instance, when I'm searching for one, I get a quick beep from time to time.

And there are times I would also swear you have an ECM Mech 20 feet in front of you.....I think it has a lot to do with which way you are looking and how fast some of them are moving.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Hitting a mech with a ppc disables their ecm for a small window of time.

But if theres an ecm mech right up in your face, hitting it with direct weapons should "help" to penetrate his ecm shroud, make sure to aquire your target as soon as you get a chance.

[mailin]

PPCs disable ECM for 4 seconds. Clan Active Probe and Beagle Active Probe act slightly differently. A BAP will counter the closest enemy with ECM, and the Clan Active Probe will only counter an enemy ECM when that ECM is targeted (by pressing R by default) for the mech carrying the CAP.

It is worth noting that either one will only counter one ECM, so a Streak Crow with a CAP that gets isolated can get torn a new one by two mechs both carrying ECM as long as they both stay close (within 90m) of the streakcrow.

[Void Angel]

Except that the Skillcrow should have a UAV, so it takes three enemy 'mechs.

Hunka Junk, on 02 October 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

So you have:

1) An enemy with an ECM. He is slow to target, but can be targeted.

and then you have

2) An enemy with an ECM who appears invisible even though they are standing right in front of you.

Are these the differences between cloaking and jamming?

I don't fully understand why one is targetable and the other is not at all.

Heheh. I feel your pain. What's going on is the interaction between shared target locks and ECM's actual effects. Lots of times people aren't careful about how they think of ECM. This can be particularly true of those who mistakenly think they're Battletech purists and embarrass themselves with terms like "magic jesus box," or "stealth armor." But I digress. The point is that while people will tell you that ECM makes 'mechs invisible, that's not actually what the system does.

ECM does five things:

• jams missile locking by any enemy 'mech within its range - this is why you can be right next to a 'mech and unable to get a lock on it (or anything else.)
  
• prevents target data sharing by affected enemies - if you're being jammed by ECM, you can't share your sensor data with teammates, nor they with you. You can still target enemy 'mechs if you can detect them: see next point.
  
• reduces the effective sensor range of enemy 'mechs to 25% of their total range when trying to target an enemy 'mech. For base sensor range, that's 200m; anything that adds sensor range will add 25% of that range to this total (in other words, range bonuses stack additively, and then are multiplied by 25%.) This is why you can have an enemy 'mech standing in front of you and not be able to "see" it with your sensors.
  
• dramatically slows missile lock speeds for enemy 'mechs that can detect it with standard sensors. This is rare in practice, because most times you can see an ECM 'mech, it's because ECM has been countered - and none of its effects apply. Normally the only time you see this is if you are sharing target data with a teammate who is within that 90-200m window where he's not afffected by ECM, but is still within sensor range.
  
• counters enemy ECM. This mode forgoes all other benefits in order to counter the ECM of the nearest enemy within range, like a Beagle Active Probe.

If you understand the actual mechanics, ECM's behavior is easy to understand - your difficulty is that you were given inaccurate descriptions originally given out by lazy-minded players.

Edited by Void Angel, 02 October 2016 - 12:12 PM.

[Koniving]

Since I know you love lore, H.J., all that Void lists is how it works in MWO. Guardian ECM does quite a bit in Battletech, but practically little of the above and what it does share with the above is done in very different ways.

[Void Angel]

Actually, if you read the double blind rules, ECM works almost exactly like tabletop - though it is far less powerful, in itself.

The difference is in the way MWO - like every Mechwarrior game since at least MW2 - deals with spotting and sensor contacts. THAT system is much different, largely due to the missile lock mechanic and the fact that you are not putting cardboard cutouts on a hex map. This difference is what made ECM so relatively powerful - particularly before a 50% range nerf and the additions of multiple hard and soft counters outside of ECM itself.

So, you could reasonably claim that ECM was too powerful in MWO - justly, since it's still quite useful after being nerfed down to 90m. You could reasonably argue that ECM's effects would be better if they were drastically different; I'd even agree. The concept of a delay before a visible 'mech appears on sensors based on its size - and ECM increasing that time - intrigues me, for example. You could even argue that an alternative translation would have been closer to tabletop, though you're entering subjective ground there. But it's not objectively reasonable to claim that PGI just "ignored the lore" when they made ECM, and that the in-game system works nothing like its tabletop equivalent. That claim is embarrassingly wrong.

[Koniving]

You'd be surprised. So, pulling out double blind rules (mostly from the Tactical Handbook aka TacOps) but also some stuff pulled from StratOps and a single thing from MaxTech on something unrelated to ECM...
Note: Everything here is Battletech related and doesn't apply to MWO:

Spoiler

In terms of general detection, the use of Guardian ECM is roughly as effective as painting your 'Mech red (edit: This is sarcasm, stated correctly in the next sentence), unless within 180 meters.
There are benefits to "not being detected" outside of range by itself roughly equal to the same as basic camouflage against Basic Sensors according to Strat Ops or less than basic camouflage against Visual Identification (aka you are in my line of sight and within 1,800 meters aka the range of my line of sight if unimpeded by terrain features).

But as Double Blind rules are mostly contained in the Tactical Handbook aka TacOps... we're going to just use them.
First I'd like to mention that Guardian ECM's actual Battlemech Combat Value is listed as 60, which is 9 more than an AC/5 and 3 less than a CASELESS AC/5.
o.O;
An ER Large Laser, aka 8 damage and 10 heat in Battletech, is valued at 108 (48 more than a Guardian ECM is valued).
This gives you an idea of how it is valued in Battletech... where in MWO it is practically a "Deal Breaker" for some.
Continuing:
BAP / CAP is listed as 50. (Now this is really unfair; ever used it in double blind and got the ultra rare success with it? Holy-Jesus-box! See spoiler)

Spoiler

A few successful rolls can turn the tide of a battle that might have taken 3 in-game hours [10,800 turns] [determined and simulated using 36 bots controlling all units playing against each other in double blind with allies set as appropriate and the same starting positions and objective destroy / protect specific locations or all enemies] to something that could be resolved in less than 30 in game minutes [300 turns] [two players and 12 bots and identical units]. Took 293 turns for the real match (29 minutes and 30 seconds), and only reason it took that long was I killed his single BAP user by tackling it with a Charger and killing the pilot by a lucky headshot from a sequential skid (slide from being knocked down) which killed the pilot due to receiving the final 2 injuries (not cockpit destruction as it still had armor, he had been injured in the past by Auto Rifle fire from infantry [did effectively no damage to the cockpit armor but 2 hits is 2 injuries] and a man-portable SRM-2 attempt which also hit the cockpit with 1 missile [getting a third injury]. Need 5 injuries to kill a pilot.). Except it got powered back up by the arrival of another pilot escorted by SRM-trucks. So when I got back to the damn mech I repeatedly kicked the living crap out of it with 3 mechs, continuing to do so even after the new pilot died in order to prevent nearby infantry from starting the mech back up again. I kicked that damn thing until a foot caved in the side torso and ruptured the ammo, causing my 'Mech to lose a leg and a pilot, and other serious leg and body damages to the other two kicking 'Mechs.)

Side note: In three out of four simulated scenarios using just the bots, my side won. In the simulated scenarios, however, BAP was "destroyed" before the match even started as pre-existing damage.
With that single BAP on the opposing side, I lost and man did I lose bad. I just couldn't take it out fast enough and it was about 4 successful rolls. It was all the guy had. It was all he needed.

Since then I added civilians to my unit roster, armed with explosives. BAP doesn't seem to tell the loadout of infantry even though it does identify them, and colored the same as the 'actual' civilians it takes some really specific eyeballing to know that they belong to me instead of the Civilian Bot. Only tried it once, but damn did it work well! Liao tactics for the win.

Angel ECM is listed as 100.



The overall effects of MWO's ECM is equal to combining Angel ECM (affects Streaks and NARCS attached to other mechs, the C3 system aka target sharing), Guardian ECM (affects Artemis, kinda-sorta-barely hides a mech within 180 meters of an enemy target and ONLY within 180 meters of the target if the target is not looking directly at him), and Stealth Camouflage (hides a mech beyond 180 meters) into 1.5 tons, on top of additional non-existent and made-up abilities like "You no can shoot LRMs at me 'cause I have ECM." meanwhile snipping out the coolest features like:

• Reduces the effectiveness of Electro Magnetic Sensors (aka "See through buildings and mountains" sensors)
  
  • though we don't have this in game at all so can't blame them here. Now if EMS does come into the game, I expect that ECM to have this ability.
• "Ghost targets" aka fake targets that we can displace up to a limited range away from ourselves (Activating ghost targets; displacing Steiner Scout Lance aka four Atlases about 120 meters south of where I am; that should scare them away).
  
  • Note: Steiner Scout Lances are not four Atlases, it is an in-universe joke that pilots make about Steiners and wasteful spending and loving it 'big and grandiose'.
• Sensor Deception (Herp-derp I'm a Raven pretending to be an Atlas; you see an Atlas on your sensors." (We have 'identity / loadout / damage deprivation' but in MWO we should still show as 'Unknown Signature' at range).
  
• Ability to remove benefits from Clan targeting computers (Angel ECM)
  
• Counter ALL Probes (Angel; the Guardian just counters Beagle Active Probe and Clan Active Probe but the fact is the ability to counter probes is lost in MWO in favor of the probes countering ECM.).
  
• and the fact that the enemy CANNOT KNOW he is jammed without an Active Probe... Though I see this as a gameplay decision for balance since everyone has ECM and not 'mostly' Liao. (If the player has a probe and is in range of an ECM device, even if the probe fails to detect the ECM device, the player must be informed that s/he is being jammed).

(Though honestly the real reason to bring a Guardian is to counter an Active Probe; you ever tried one in tabletop / megamek with double blind rules? Most overpowered thing I ever saw. Get one good roll and for ten seconds you can see every single enemy location for seemingly unlimited range [definitely out to 1,800 meters or 60 hexes) regardless of walls, being inside buildings, being underground, being on a mountain top overlooking the city without actually being anywhere near the visible ledge, or in one case due to an error in judgement... I had a mech detected underneath 90 meters of rubble because a big building collapsed in on me, and kept collapsing as I tried to climb out until I was buried in rubble. Still could detect me from 44 hexes (1,320) meters away.

Now within 180 meters, it does make you harder to detect, great for sneaking up on enemies.

Strat Ops has other specifics associated with ECM, the various probes, stealth camo, etc.
Guardian has about the same effect at beyond 180 meters against sensors as 'basic camouflage'. In other words, woodland paint.
To visual detection, it has less effect than basic camouflage.

Now you can combine basic camouflage and ECM to get a modifier that the "average" pilot might fail on a really bad roll. But I'm telling you now in Megamek I have never failed to be detected at range, visual or sensors, by another mech. Even one with damaged sensors by anything less than a green pilot.
Yes, a green pilot failed to detect me once in testing, but in the next ten seconds he spotted me on sensors 90 degrees to his left at 270 meters.

Of other interesting note: The ability to distinguish a mech from a fire has an additional difficulty penalty of four, in other words the additional difficulty of hitting the enemy with Thermographic Vision enabled while it stands within 30 meters of a ground fire is roughly the same as the average Inner Sphere pilot's overall piloting skill... on top of whatever actual gunnery skill they really have. Also it appears to work much better at long range than short...



Also interesting:
Light mechs unless moving at a certain speed in Battletech double blind are practically invisible to Seismic Sensor, requiring a roll of 12 or greater... with 2d6. A medium mech requires 10+, a heavy requires 8+ and an assault requires 6+. Hover vehicles require 13+ (impossible) and tracked/wheeled vehicles/mechs require 11+. Yes, tracked and wheeled mechs. (This usually refers to Agricultural 'Mechs and Security 'Mechs which may have Robot Jocks-esque catapillar tracks, or a mech being carried by a wheeled/tracked vehicle).
(Note on roll, for success you must surpass the number).
(Note 2: This is to lock on targets through Seismic Sensor that your otther sensors do not pick up and that you cannot physically see in order to fire; useful for things like SRMs or LRMs, or for things like shooting through lighter buildings and other obstacles Call of Duty / Battlefield style).
(Note 3: These rolls are modified by how fast the mech moves; the more meters they travel within the same turn the more likely you can detect and pinpoint them enough to shoot them)
(Note 4: A light moving roughly 64.8 kph should therefore be invisible to basic Seismic; imagine in a stock party match, if slow lights like Panthers and Urbanmechs were nearly to detect on Seismic... against foes heavily reliant on "Wall hacks" aka Seismic Sensor?)
(Note 5: MaxTech has a Sensor Geek pilot perk that enhances the ability for sensors to pick up things; adding this to the use of Seismic can pick up Lights unless moving 5 hexes or less (Battletech's Dire Wolf's 53 something kph or MWO's 48 kph Dire Wolf speed).

Fun!

Edited by Koniving, 03 October 2016 - 04:58 AM.

[Hunka Junk]

[color=#CCCCCC]reduces the effective sensor range of enemy 'mechs to 25% of their total range when trying to target an enemy 'mech. For base sensor range, that's 200m; anything that adds sensor range will add 25% of that range to this total (in other words, range bonuses stack additively, and then are multiplied by 25%.) This is why you can have an enemy 'mech standing in front of you and not be able to "see" it with your sensors.[/color]

I think it must be this that I didn't get. What's the range of the ECM? If it's makin it so I don't have target acquisition, the ecm range must be more than 200m, right?

[Koniving]

The range in MWO is 90 meters. But the effects of "invisibility to sensors" and missiles goes all the way out to 1,000+ meters and stops within 25% of your maximum sensor range. Then all the other perks are within 90 meters.
(hereafter referred to as "Invisibility", which is NOT to be mistaken for cloaking and becoming actually invisible)

In Battletech, short of a slight perk against straight sensor equipment detection on NON-VISUAL detection equal to basic camo given in Strat Ops (so not even in straight Double Blind rules but after tacking another set of amendments to double blind rules), all effects are within 180 meters and NOT beyond it.

To be fair to MWO's version, it does not have sideways or rearward sensors to apply the "invisibility" on like Battletech does, which in previous Mechwarrior games the sensors have been mistakenly referred to as a "radar" for simplicity and comprehension. MWO's sensors do not pick up sound, either unlike the fluff for Battletech sensors. Nor does MWO have Battletech radar.

(Which is actually radar and is strictly entitled to very few mechs such as the Rifleman. Unlike "Mechwarror" radar in the past aka Battletech sensors, Battletech "radar" is used for detection and tracking of airborne targets and not land-based targets.)

The only real differences between detection via sensors, visual or not from MWO's version are as follows:
*The ECM mech would be identified as Unknown signature or hostile unknown signature.
*There would be no damage readout, name, weapon list or other identifying marks other than "signature B" or some other sequential marker... until it is lost and must be re-identified as a sequential marker potentially leading you to believe there are multiple ECM units instead of one.
*You can target Streaks, LRMs and SRMs at target and expect to hit, even over walls (with non-streaks).
*You would be able to use Artemis-Enhanced weapons to try and hit the target but benefits of enhancement would stop as soon as they get within 180 meters of the target -- or if fired at another target benefits would be lost if the Artemis missiles pass within 180 meters of an ECM user located anywhere within 180 meters of the flight path.
Once a target is close enough to you and in line of sight you can visually identify the weapon's and rough estimate of damage, as well as the mech itself.

Technically I should strike the angel ECM reference of target sharing as C3 is a bit more advanced than PGI's target sharing even if that is more advanced than Battletech's target sharing in double blind "I see him in grid xx,yy at elevation zz, target looks like an Atlas, definitely big, bearing 279 at 45 kph, maybe 50, anticipate LRM coordinates to be..... he's uh changing course to 231, yeah 231 at flanking speed. That's right at me! ****! LRMs! Need LRM support at my location in 20 seconds! 13 seconds! I need them now!!!"

Battletech spotting continued from a famous example: (Corrected for Clan grammar).
"We have 'Mechs down at Nav Gamma (Clan speak; that's IS NAV C.), Bravo Cadet reports two subjects on site. Bandits are hostile. Repeat bandits are hostile."
"HQ, this is Alpha Assault; I'm on my way; Bearing 025."
Computer: ETA, 34 seconds.
"Alpha Assault, this is Bravo Cadet. I have got bandits all over me. Wo**d you get down here!"
"Sit tight, Bravo 3 (cadet?), I have got visual."
"I've got hip actuators out, uh, targeting system's damaged, I'm in bad shape."
Enemy detected.
"3, 2 of them. Behind the line!"
"Roger, I (have) got them."
Targeting! Boom.
"It's got a lock on me! It's got a lock on--!!!" Boom.
Targeting!
....
"Alpha Assault, what is your situation?" "Alpha Assault, this is HQ. What is your situation? Please comply."
(Note the Mechwarrior 2 intro was planned through a specific tabletop scenario in Level 3 rules within the Tactical Handbook with a mix of role playing from the Mechwarrior RPG Handbook. Tactical Hanbook First published 1994.)



PGI's version:
"Target B, everyone hit target B. LRMs on B."

C3 version.
"This is Lance Leader, my Lance hit target B using relay data from Bravo 3."
Fires AC/20 from 800 meters with C3 aim assist, lands shot perfectly as if only 220 meters away which is the exact distance of Bravo 3 from the target.

Edited by Koniving, 03 October 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[Void Angel]

Lots of extraneous information and photoshopped screen shots do not impress me. You are correct that ECM only affects spotting when the enemy is in range of the system; in this I was in error. What can I say? It's been a while, and the rules list that vitally important fact as an afterthought, behind even noting where the core rules for ECM are located - and nearly contradict the more general statement in the second paragraph. However, my general thesis still stands.

The general ECM systems disrupt active probes, C³ (i.e. target sharing,) Narc beacons, and Artemis whenever the line of sight of those systems crosses the ECM system's radius. This means that ECM creates a huge shadow behind the equipped 'mech, even at potentially long ranges and irrespective of line of sight. Sensor spotting immunity notwithstanding, that's a huge difference over the MWO version, and a significant difference in power. And since there are no cover and movement bonuses to a dice roll that doesn't exist in MWO, the ability of light, fast 'mechs to survive getting within ECM range of the enemy is drastically decreased. Thus, ranged ECM jamming makes sense (though I could wish it would simply reduce sensor range by a much smaller number with its canon range intact,) and its current effect lies well within the bounds of translation between an overhead tabletop dice-roller and a first person piloting format.

And again, the main difference regarding missile locks is the lock mechanic, which doesn't really exist in tabletop, rather than the ability of ECM to interfere with sensors at range (which actually makes sense if you're trying to balance what the system does in tabletop as opposed to MWO.) It is the requirement that you are able to sensor spot before locking onto a target that makes ECM more powerful than in tabletop, not the capabilities of the system itself. Visual line of sight spotting (the main method of detecting enemies in BattleTech) is unimpaired - the issue is the way several interrelated systems interlock, and with the way they then interact with the translational differences between BattleTech and MWO.

So the problem isn't that ECM is unfaithful to canon, and everything would be sweetness and light if we just slavishly copied the tabletop rules - it's that the current sensor and missile locking rules that have been standard in Mechwarrior games have undesirable implications in MWO, for things like effective scouting, which still need to be addressed.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 October 2016 - 04:58 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Sweet Jesus...that cleared things up.....not....

I just got home from having a root canal and I simply cannot follow this. I never played TT and I just read the books so...this is over my pay grade.

Here is the way I see it. ECM used to stand for Electronic Counter Measures.

There used to be another one like this: NBC, or Nuclear, Biological or Chemical. This is what we were taught to be afraid of. Then the First Gulf War came and NBC just was not "cool" enough or grabbed enough attention so now EVERYTHING is called a "Weapon of Mass Destruction".

They meant Nukes and a little chemical and biological weapons but the freaking press picked it up like expected and now it also means large cannons and large rocks. Pipe bombs and 5,000 Gallon gasoline tankers made into bombs. A Hammer or MC Hammer....

Sorry, I went into a rant......

OK, for me, early ECM was passive, Now they are active and IMO are supposed to block out the normal sensors of most Mechs. Normally I would assume that the Clan one and the IS one work the same.

I understand that for one Mech's ECM to work, it has to be within 90ms of another now. I had a perfect guy last night doing what I have done. He was in a Kit Fox and he said "staying with you Kodiak" and gave me constant updates including other targets. This guy knew what he was doing and what he was saying.

The range part is confusing although I can see it working better at close range and worse at
longer.

Probes are active seekers. And again, as far as I know, the Clan probe and the BAP are about the same. At the testing grounds, I can see that a normal Mech has a targeting range of 800ms. A probe gives him 1000ms.

After this it gets confusing. I think I've read where a BAP can counter an ECM Mech. I assume that that does not mean counter like another ECM does with it even crossing out the ECM.

A Mech with a Probe should be able to see a close ECM Mech but not to be able to "counter" it. Only another ECM should be able to do that. Oddly, talking about the size of the Mech, Hellbringers for me are the ones you see and you know what they must be the enemy and with ECM.

I wonder now if a lot of the light scout Mechs I "never saw" really did have ECM. I think a lot simply moved fast and outside my field of view. The lack of 360-degree sensors is strange. It is like WW2 radar. I did not get at first playing that you had to look in a certain direction to see something to target it.

I know this is against 98% of the people that support this game but I do not want to see it stuck in the past. It might also be true that they have no control over "The Story". I noticed last week that the Jade Falcons had surrounded Terra but I guess were not allowed the take it?

I'd like to see someone changes. I've read where to "bring scouting back", there has been talk about different Mechs have longer sensor ranges than others. I would like to see a lot more modules added and a lot more module slots added.

That would give so many possibilities. A Raven can load up with 3 or more targeting and extra sensor modules. While on the other side a ShadowCat wants to stay better hidden.

If nothing else PGI should do as it has never known, simply explain things.

The Cyclops comes with the new battle computer blah blah. It increases it's sensor range and also the range of all the ally mechs within a certain range. But they can't list two simply numbers? Players are guessing at the ranges...

[S 0 L E N Y A]

LikeUntoGod, on 03 October 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

If nothing else PGI should do as it has never known, simply explain things.

The Cyclops comes with the new battle computer blah blah. It increases it's sensor range and also the range of all the ally mechs within a certain range. But they can't list two simply numbers? Players are guessing at the ranges...

PGI explaining things would be great. People have been complaining about that since before I started playing.

As far the Tacticon computer. . . . The numbers are 150m boost to sensor range, and boosts range of friendly mechs within 200m.

Edited by Boogie138, 04 October 2016 - 05:35 PM.

[Void Angel]

LikeUntoGod, on 03 October 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Sweet Jesus...that cleared things up.....not....

I just got home from having a root canal and I simply cannot follow this. I never played TT and I just read the books so...this is over my pay grade.

Don't worry about all of the tabletop stuff. It's useful only as a starting point for translating the tabletop game into MWO's format. The only times you see it discussed outside of this context is for nostalgia purposes - and when someone thinks that they can claim moral superiority for their pet change to this game.

In any case, what are you confused about, other than Kon and I slinging rulebooks at each other? Did my Original Response make sense? I don't want to give you any misconceptions about how ECM works.

PS: NBC is CBRN now - because some fobbit decided that he could get a bullet point for making an acronym that's got "burn" in the pronunciation.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Void Angel, on 04 October 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

PS: NBC is CBRN now - because some fobbit decided that he could get a bullet point for making an acronym that's got "burn" in the pronunciation.

I know, I was too mad and having to explain another change simply seemed like it was too much. And people still use "Weapon of Mass Destruction" which I hate.

[Void Angel]

LikeUntoGod, on 05 October 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

I know, I was too mad and having to explain another change simply seemed like it was too much. And people still use "Weapon of Mass Destruction" which I hate.

But seriously, did you still have questions about how ECM works?

Edited by Void Angel, 05 October 2016 - 07:57 PM.

[762 NATO]

Ever shown up to formation in shower shoes, pt belt and airclad? I did once, but many moons ago.

[Void Angel]

Skyclad. It's more spiritual. I know a guy who rappelled down the outside of his room naked, though - and in full sight of the Battallion picnic.