127 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

You would get nothing because that extra couple of meters gets you nothing except extra hang time for me to rail you out of the sky. The most useful thing JJs do for a Light is feathering the hit-boxes, anything else makes you more vulnerable than running over flat ground because you have to give up control.

And what do you propose we give the non-JJ lights? More agility? Not going to cut it, because we're at the point of diminishing returns on something like the Locust. You would have to dip right back into the weapons quirk basket, because the only worthwhile tradeoff to not having JJs is more weapon range and/or reduced laser duration.

I would gain mobility and weight from running less jjs, and that extra height could come in handy for mechs like a ppc panther. Also depending on how its done, I could possibly jj more often, ascend faster, or if jumping the same height have more fuel left for landing. And its not like the better jj would remove the option of feathering the jjs.
And for the non-jj lights I would add whatever would work for them. Weapon quirks, structure quirks, mobility quirks, mix of them.

Edited by dario03, 27 October 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

dario03, on 27 October 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

I would gain mobility and weight from running less jjs, and that extra height could come in handy for mechs like a ppc panther. Also depending on how its done, I could possibly jj more often, ascend faster, or if jumping the same height have more fuel left for landing. And its not like the better jj would remove the option of feathering the jjs.
And for the non-jj lights I would add whatever would work for them. Weapon quirks, structure quirks, mobility quirks, mix of them.

No, you wouldn't get even that. We only run one or two JJs when we have the choice, else the Jets are either locked or not present.

Ascending faster doesn't help you, either, because we can already run straight up most inclines and those we can't don't take much jetting to leap even now. If you are proposing it will open up new routes, I will have to interject and say that is a bloody awful idea because the ability to invalidate too many map obstacles is too much power for any 'Mech.

I am not a fan of dipping into the quirk bucket except for when we are at the utmost end of need. Our goal should be to reduce dependencies on them, not increase them.

Basically, Lights in the current game are not hurting for mobility (note, this is not synonymous with agility) even slightly. They can already go places other 'Mechs can't. You don't need better jets for any balance reasons at all.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

No, you wouldn't get even that. We only run one or two JJs when we have the choice, else the Jets are either locked or not present.

The problem is PGI's math always being jumpjet height is a multiple of how many JJs you put on it.

It's not mathematically hard to use basic algebra to have JJ scaling use a low base (1 or maybe even 2 JJs get punished) and having more would scale quicker faster.

Basically PGI's doing math equivalent to...

Y = 10X

What I'm asking is...

Y = 10X - 7

Where Y is JJ height and X is # of JJs. It's still linear scaling, but having a different starting point depending on tonnage/weight class or whatever is not a complicated mathematical feat.

[Lyoto Machida]

Rear Admiral Tier 6, on 26 October 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Just take the heat off from class 1 jjs,only thing the heat addon to jump jets nerfed was jump brawling with heavies and assaults.
Highlander could use a lore friendly quirk to legs for nullifying fall damage.I found the old 2 uac5 2 ppc 733C still usable,but you are forced to use XL engine and 4 jump jets.The initial thrust is still a bit weak,but way better than the first iteration.
Massive hardpoint inflation is in place anyway,why not show some love to the old breed.

They don't show love to the old breed so they can sell the new breed for cash.

[dario03]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

No, you wouldn't get even that. We only run one or two JJs when we have the choice, else the Jets are either locked or not present.

Ascending faster doesn't help you, either, because we can already run straight up most inclines and those we can't don't take much jetting to leap even now. If you are proposing it will open up new routes, I will have to interject and say that is a bloody awful idea because the ability to invalidate too many map obstacles is too much power for any 'Mech.

I am not a fan of dipping into the quirk bucket except for when we are at the utmost end of need. Our goal should be to reduce dependencies on them, not increase them.

Basically, Lights in the current game are not hurting for mobility (note, this is not synonymous with agility) even slightly. They can already go places other 'Mechs can't. You don't need better jets for any balance reasons at all.

No, I would get all of those things if buffed enough.

And ascending faster would definitely help. It would help with the feathering of JJs to not get hit and it would help clear obstacles faster to again not get hit.

If you want less quirks then simply go with the remove quirks on mechs with JJs based on how much it actually helps.

Lights might be able to get to places where others can't (though that really depends on what mechs we're talking about) but that doesn't mean that they couldn't benefit from being able to get there faster. Also better JJs could help with agility which so many heavies and assaults are over quirked for (or lights under quirked) (compare some like a Firestarter to a Summoner).

What reason is there to not buff light JJs? Even if it only helps a little, it still helps.

Edited by dario03, 27 October 2016 - 10:37 AM.

[Cabbage Merchant]

YES
Make the Spider-5V Great Again!!

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

The problem is PGI's math always being jumpjet height is a multiple of how many JJs you put on it.

It's not mathematically hard to use basic algebra to have JJ scaling use a low base (1 or maybe even 2 JJs get punished) and having more would scale quicker faster.

Basically PGI's doing math equivalent to...

Y = 10X

What I'm asking is...

Y = 10X - 7

Where Y is JJ height and X is # of JJs. It's still linear scaling, but having a different starting point depending on tonnage/weight class or whatever is not a complicated mathematical feat.

That math is not necessary (just use a different value for X for each weight class). Based in what you say you want, with one or two being meh and more being significantly better, what you need is an exponential function on JJs. But again that doesn't help Lights because I have to still spend a significant portion of my resources that I need for firepower, engine, or cooling to get more thrust, and that is after ignoring that jets on Lights already do everything they need to with only one or two.

Really, JJs should not be controllable except by number. They should always give you the full burn in one button press to leap you a distance determined by that quantity of jets, mostly in the horizontal lane (i.e 120 meters forward and 24 meters up).

Boom. Poptarting is dead (as much as I enjoy it in moderation, it is a silly and cheesy mechanic that ceases to be amusing when it becomes properly dangerous...with 30+ point volleys), giant engines are no longer strictly necessary for brawling, Assaults get escape options, and they actually do what the lore says they should do. Everybody wins...except those who like cheesy mechanics.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

That math is not necessary (just use a different value for X for each weight class). Based in what you say you want, with one or two being meh and more being significantly better, what you need is an exponential function on JJs. But again that doesn't help Lights because I have to still spend a significant portion of my resources that I need for firepower, engine, or cooling to get more thrust, and that is after ignoring that jets on Lights already do everything they need to with only one or two.

Really, JJs should not be controllable except by number. They should always give you the full burn in one button press to leap you a distance determined by that quantity of jets, mostly in the horizontal lane (i.e 120 meters forward and 24 meters up).

Boom. Poptarting is dead (as much as I enjoy it in moderation, it is a silly and cheesy mechanic that ceases to be amusing when it becomes properly dangerous...with 30+ point volleys), giant engines are no longer strictly necessary for brawling, Assaults get escape options, and they actually do what the lore says they should do. Everybody wins...except those who like cheesy mechanics.

I only suggested algebra because that's only what PGI is capable of. I would PREFER exponential functions, but as you well know... math is Lostech @ PGI.

I like poptarting. I simply don't like the idea that was the dominant strategy (once upon a time at least). It's fine if it gets nerfed a little, but it had to go overboard instead of doing a little buffing other underwhelming things.

It's more of an issue with our balance overlord that has determined... even in the Executioner (8 tons of worthless JJs) that they have to be nearly useless in reality. God forbid the Heavy Metal being even more totally worthless with 5 of them (10 tons of fail).

Noone asked for Hoverjets™. Noone.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 October 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

dario03, on 27 October 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

No, I would get all of those things if buffed enough.

And ascending faster would definitely help. It would help with the feathering of JJs to not get hit and it would help clear obstacles faster to again not get hit.

It wouldn't, because that isn't how feathering works. You are tapping it to start the animation playing, which it does immediately regardless of the number of jets you have or how powerful they are. You are simply wasting tonnage.

Lights can already clear obstacles quickly enough to not get hit. What you want is the ability to basically ignore map geometry, and that is a non-starter.

I sincerely doubt you loaded your 'Mechs up on maximum JJs to get closer to this functionality even before the rescale, and I sincerely doubt you would do so after a JJ change.

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If you want less quirks then simply go with the remove quirks on mechs with JJs based on how much it actually helps.

I am not sure you understand how much quirking would be required to counter the ability to bypass map geometry with this level of ease. We're talking the removal of agility buffs to theJJ 'Mechs *and* the addition of offensive quirks to non-JJ ones.

Quote

Lights might be able to get to places where others can't (though that really depends on what mechs we're talking about) but that doesn't mean that they couldn't benefit from being able to get there faster. Also better JJs could help with agility which so many heavies and assaults are over quirked for (or lights under quirked) (compare some like a Firestarter to a Summoner).

Note, I never said they couldn't benefit, I said they don't need it. They most definitely could benefit and that is precisely why I am against the idea. I am a light pilot myself, and I do play them at the same level as you. Lack of mobility is not an area where Lights need help. They need help with acceleration, turn rate, and having weapons that aren't trash, but not the ability to get places quickly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

I sincerely doubt you loaded your 'Mechs up on maximum JJs to get closer to this functionality even before the rescale, and I sincerely doubt you would do so after a JJ change.

Some light pilots did, I know before the tournament started some of our lights decided that 3-4 JJs on mechs like the Jenner IIC were really nice to have over firepower because you could avoid parts of the map easier, this being brought on by the Cheetah and how it spoiled some of our light pilots and its ability to get away a bit better than most. This is a non-issue currently because the best light right now is the Cheetah so it doesn't have that problem, but I assure you 1-2 JJs is not what all light pilots run. Being able to run less for the same effectiveness would give you potentially a ton that you could use elsewhere.

Either way, the way JJs work for lights needs to change because it seems wrong that mediums benefit from such good jets while lights get screwed, granted at the very least lights gain height a lot faster than mediums like the Griffin do despite having overall similar jump heights.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[Piney II]

I would definitely not like to see the return of pop tarts.

[Mcgral18]

Piney, on 27 October 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

I would definitely not like to see the return of pop tarts.

And I don't want HoverJets™ to remain a thing
Or one HoverJet™ being the most powerful, with each subsequent being equally inferior

[Piney II]

Mcgral18, on 27 October 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

And I don't want HoverJets™ to remain a thing
Or one HoverJet™ being the most powerful, with each subsequent being equally inferior

Perhaps a compromise?

[dario03]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

It wouldn't, because that isn't how feathering works. You are tapping it to start the animation playing, which it does immediately regardless of the number of jets you have or how powerful they are. You are simply wasting tonnage.

Lights can already clear obstacles quickly enough to not get hit. What you want is the ability to basically ignore map geometry, and that is a non-starter.

I sincerely doubt you loaded your 'Mechs up on maximum JJs to get closer to this functionality even before the rescale, and I sincerely doubt you would do so after a JJ change.



I am not sure you understand how much quirking would be required to counter the ability to bypass map geometry with this level of ease. We're talking the removal of agility buffs to theJJ 'Mechs *and* the addition of offensive quirks to non-JJ ones.



Note, I never said they couldn't benefit, I said they don't need it. They most definitely could benefit and that is precisely why I am against the idea. I am a light pilot myself, and I do play them at the same level as you. Lack of mobility is not an area where Lights need help. They need help with acceleration, turn rate, and having weapons that aren't trash, but not the ability to get places quickly.

Actually what I want is balance. And I don't see a reason for why 55t mechs should get more jump height per JJ when their jjs weigh the same as 30t mech jjs. Or why a 40t mech gets 13.1m per jj compared to a 35t mech's 7.4m. Or why a medium should be able to take more falls.

Who said anything about max JJs? One of my points for better jjs on lights is so that they can run less jjs while still getting some air. And no, I don't usually run max jjs but I have before and I've ran ~5jjs on 35t mechs a bunch of times.

Well like you said, lights can already get to a lot of spots on the map so buffing jjs shouldn't be a big deal. Especially since like you said most would just run 1 or 2 anyways.

And I'm all for getting those other quirks for lights but I don't see how a buff to light jjs would stop that. So again, I don't see a reason to not give them better jjs.

Edited by dario03, 27 October 2016 - 06:01 PM.

[Zordicron]

Yes, return JJ to a very solid benefit to the variants that can use them. They got gigasmashed so hard with the nerfbat I hadn't considered them a benefit on prettymuch any mech for a long while now, and actually saw them as a detriment on fixed style omni clan mechs where space/tonnage was "wasted". THAT IS REDICULOUS, and is just another item on the list of "we will revisit those" from PGI we haven't seen.

Poptarts were not invincible, I mean, you CAN shoot them when they are exposed. Now, I won;t say there wasn;t a big advantage to doing it back then, I mean it did provide for arguably the best exposed/shot time compared to corner poking, but largely the benefit was because the crude, terrible early HSR got all kinds of f'd up when vertical movment also had to be processed. So many times some fat Highlander would jump up over a hill to shoot, you would rip off a goose round, and watch it sail clear through the enemy mech because HSR said so.

That was then. Bone tracing HSR and PGI finally setting up AC rounds(especially burst) on a standard type clock interval has made most weapons very, very reliable compared to back then. Truth is, that Highander trying to poptart would get wrecked from lasers and AC alphas the same if he is jumping up over a hill as if he is peeking over one or corner peeking now days. The fixed up HSR is part of why we are where we are and stuff like energy draw is even on the table. The damage ACTUALLY COUNTS now, almost if not all of it. A far cry from the 0-100% range lasers used to do and the mysterious ghost shells AC20's used to fire occasionally from years past.

I want my JJ back. I used to be one of those crazy berserker 5V 12 JJ pilots that would have people making remarks in chat about my acrobatic antics. I used to enjoy jumping off enemy mechs heads late game in my Jenners. Sure, you can try that now, but between the agility spankings and HSR improvments, it is pretty freegin hard to sustain.

IMO, enough has changed with HSR, current stock of mechs, firepower and weapons changes, etc, JJ are just low on the list of concerns anymore. People used to complain it was too hard to move around because the poptarts could take advantage of pretty well any open ground from a defensive point. Well, how is that much different then nowdays with 12 vs 12 and megagank alphas making exposing your mech in open ground a death sentence?

Go back to 8 vs 8. Bring back JJ. Give us a proper heat scale, get rid of ghost heat, won't need it or power draw. We get that stuff, that basic, Battletech, basic MECHWARRIOR stuff tacked down, we can move on to neat-o stuff like weapon manufacturers, knockdowns, new weapons, etc. I am prolly living in lala land given the makers of such esteemed titles as Marine Sharpshooter are at the helm, but I can rant my opinions here just like everyone else anyway, they won;t read it.

[Y E O N N E]

dario03, on 27 October 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Actually what I want is balance. And I don't see a reason for why 55t mechs should get more jump height per JJ when their jjs weigh the same as 30t mech jjs. Or why a 40t mech gets 13.1m per jj compared to a 35t mech's 7.4m. Or why a medium should be able to take more falls.

So bring the Medium JJs down. The only 'Mechs that really suffer for JJs are the Assaults. I can actually jump quite well in my Marauders and Cataphracts. I'm not inclined to OKAY anything that allows pop-tarting to be easier even by association because, contrary to belief, the JJ nerf is actually the only thing keeping it down (cross-hair shake is irrelevant since you fire on the drop, projectiles have been getting faster since the original nerfs, Clan TCs speed up projectiles and improve crit chance, Clan ERPPCs have bonus damage, Clan Gauss/PPCs are easier to fit on more 'Mechs, and Clans can run ERPPCs colder than most IS 'Mechs).

I don't know what's up with the fall damage.

Quote

Who said anything about max JJs? One of my points for better jjs on lights is so that they can run less jjs while still getting some air. And no, I don't usually run max jjs but I have before and I've ran ~5jjs on 35t mechs a bunch of times.

And you don't see a problem with 'Mechs stuck with max JJs getting no real advantage for that tonnage investment? Come on, now. Jump capabilities on only one or two jets should be mediocre.

Quote

Well like you said, lights can already get to a lot of spots on the map so buffing jjs shouldn't be a big deal. Especially since like you said most would just run 1 or 2 anyways.

It would be a big deal because you can get even more places and you can get into the current places, faster, neither of which are capabilities necessary to make Lights good and both of which make map geometry all but meaningless to a subset of a single class of 'Mechs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

Some light pilots did, I know before the tournament started some of our lights decided that 3-4 JJs on mechs like the Jenner IIC were really nice to have over firepower because you could avoid parts of the map easier, this being brought on by the Cheetah and how it spoiled some of our light pilots and its ability to get away a bit better than most. This is a non-issue currently because the best light right now is the Cheetah so it doesn't have that problem, but I assure you 1-2 JJs is not what all light pilots run. Being able to run less for the same effectiveness would give you potentially a ton that you could use elsewhere.

And they spent the requisite tonnage to get improved jump capabilities. I actually did the same on my FS9-A before it fell out of favor, for the same reason, and I had no complaints.

This is not the system being broken, for once, this is the system working properly. It's the Medium jets that are out of line, so bring the Medium jets down.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 27 October 2016 - 06:59 PM.

[dario03]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 October 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

So bring the Medium JJs down. The only 'Mechs that really suffer for JJs are the Assaults. I can actually jump quite well in my Marauders and Cataphracts. I'm not inclined to OKAY anything that allows pop-tarting to be easier even by association because, contrary to belief, the JJ nerf is actually the only thing keeping it down (cross-hair shake is irrelevant since you fire on the drop, projectiles have been getting faster since the original nerfs, Clan TCs speed up projectiles and improve crit chance, Clan ERPPCs have bonus damage, Clan Gauss/PPCs are easier to fit on more 'Mechs, and Clans can run ERPPCs colder than most IS 'Mechs).

I don't know what's up with the fall damage.



And you don't see a problem with 'Mechs stuck with max JJs getting no real advantage for that tonnage investment? Come on, now. Jump capabilities on only one or two jets should be mediocre.



It would be a big deal because you can get even more places and you can get into the current places, faster, neither of which are capabilities necessary to make Lights good and both of which make map geometry all but meaningless to a subset of a single class of 'Mechs.



And they spent the requisite tonnage to get improved jump capabilities. I actually did the same on my FS9-A before it fell out of favor, for the same reason, and I had no complaints.

This is not the system being broken, for once, this is the system working properly. It's the Medium jets that are out of line, so bring the Medium jets down.

I'd be fine with bringing medium jjs down too. But mediums are not all that great either so would need buffs to them and still need buffs to lights. And having some more mechs capable of poptarting wouldn't be a bad thing. The only problem with poptarting was that at its height it was to powerful. But poptarting that isn't op would just add more variety to the game.

Mechs with more jump jets should have advantages, I never said they shouldn't.

No one thing is necessary to make lights good. But buffing their JJs wouldn't hurt and is a way to make them better. Might help some mechs more than others and maybe it won't help your style of play but it would help others.

[Y E O N N E]

dario03, on 27 October 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

I'd be fine with bringing medium jjs down too. But mediums are not all that great either so would need buffs to them and still need buffs to lights. And having some more mechs capable of poptarting wouldn't be a bad thing. The only problem with poptarting was that at its height it was to powerful. But poptarting that isn't op would just add more variety to the game.

I dunno, I think my Blackjacks all jump pretty stupendously even on just two jets where applicable. I don't think I'd really miss the extra 2 meters. The HBK-IIC could use the nerf, too.

Having more 'Mechs capable of pop-tarting is a completely bad thing. We have variety now precisely because only a few 'Mechs can do it. If more 'Mechs can do it, we have less variety because it's basically the only consistent answer to the Kodiak at the moment. Personally, I define variety by different load-outs rather than by the 'Mechs. It doesn't really count if you bring a Blackjack instead of a Hunchback if they are effectively running the same build.

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Mechs with more jump jets should have advantages, I never said they shouldn't.

Law of diminishing returns is in full effect, here. For those 'Mechs to have their locked JJs be worth the tonnage investment, a single, and even paired, JJ has to be underwhelming. That's pretty much a non-negotiable with the way JJs currently operate (meaning you hold the button to fire for as long as you need and they go straight up). If you want to turn JJs into an all or nothing affair on activation that allow you to leap large horizontal distances in addition to some vertical motion, then we can discuss making one or two good because the returns don't drop off as rapidly.

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No one thing is necessary to make lights good. But buffing their JJs wouldn't hurt and is a way to make them better. Might help some mechs more than others and maybe it won't help your style of play but it would help others.

I don't really have a single style of play. I play jumpy, I play pokey, I play brawly. Whatever suits the 'Mech. I merely do not wish to see my ACH, JR7-IIC, FS9, etc. have 75% of the jumping utility (utility being level of usefulness and not a single metric like jump height) of my MLX for only 33% of the tonnage investment. That's...ridiculous...and that's also where we are heading by buffing jets on Lights due to previously mentioned law of diminishing returns.

[DrxAbstract]

Could you imagine if the Basic JJ Functionality cap was 2, the next +1, +1 (4 total JJs) significantly increased reservoir and recharge and the rest afterward granted directional thrust with gradual increases in power? Good golly miss molly...

[Mcgral18]

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