78 replies to this topic

[EDMW CSN]

Brakkyn, on 25 December 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

This is assuming that, sometime in the future, you can actually play as a Clanner. I'm inclined to doubt that will become possible. Also, what's the point of being a Clanner if you don't fight as one? Otherwise, you're just a glorified barbarian Spheroid in a better 'Mech.

With BV in force, you will be likely facing a full company of IS assaults or 2 lances of SL era tech IS assaults. And all taking turns to batter a star of clan assaults in 1 to 1 duels. Do you think there are IS players patient enough for that ? Please don't be naive.

The average IS player will simply shoot the easiest kill. Heck people do that all the time in ANY pvp based game, hence forming the assistance scoring system because people kept crying on getting kill stolen. Even people in EVE small ships will try to do some light damage so they can appear on the kill mail.

With BV in force, for the IS team, there is only 5 targets to shoot at. With lone wolf players or casual players who don't have the time to watch the Clan assaults dealing 1 to 1 duels, they might just gang up and shoot your Clan mech first while you are dancing around some other guy.

It will become who gets the kill first and 1st dibs on salvage for that shiny clan tech from the other horde of IS players. With IS players essentially outnumbering Clan players there is no point in Zellbrigen.

If you are ready to walk your Dire Wolf to a company of IS assaults and declare a verbal challenge, be prepared to lose it. Most people will just take their time to line up shots for your legs and blow you for salvage.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 25 December 2011 - 07:20 AM.

[aglarang]

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 December 2011 - 07:16 AM, said:

With BV in force, you will be likely facing a full company of IS assaults or 2 lances of SL era tech IS assaults. And all taking turns to batter a star of clan assaults in 1 to 1 duels. Do you think there are IS players patient enough for that ? Please don't be naive.

The average IS player will simply shoot the easiest kill. Heck people do that all the time in ANY pvp based game, hence forming the assistance scoring system because people kept crying on getting kill stolen. Even people in EVE small ships will try to do some light damage so they can appear on the kill mail.

With BV in force, for the IS team, there is only 5 targets to shoot at. With lone wolf players or casual players who don't have the time to watch the Clan assaults dealing 1 to 1 duels, they might just gang up and shoot your Clan mech first while you are dancing around some other guy.

It will become who gets the kill first and 1st dibs on salvage for that shiny clan tech from the other horde of IS players. With IS players essentially outnumbering Clan players there is no point in Zellbrigen.

If you are ready to walk your Dire Wolf to a company of IS assaults and declare a verbal challenge, be prepared to lose it. Most people will just take their time to line up shots for your legs and blow you for salvage.

I think you missed the point Brakkyn was trying to make. He was not commenting on the fact that IS warriors do not fight according to Zellbriggen, but rather, that players of this game will not adhere to it when they are playing as clan warriors either.. basically, most players will play the same way regardless of faction, the clan players will simply have better machines (if they follow canon). So, you will have clanners in name and technology only, not in honor or martial code. His (Brakk's) post had nothing to do with the way IS players will fight or behave.

Tangent follows. Do not read if you want to stay true to the thread.
Now, I am sure there will be some people who take their RP seriously and will make ever attempt to follow clan ways, issuing Batchalls, allowing for Safcon, Heigiera(sp?), etc., but most will play the clans simply because they want to be the baddest dog in the fight and they will take the most superior technology to do it simply so they can say they won. It will not matter if they had a BV twice that of the people they beat. That is the way these games work much of the time. This is also assuming Clan tech will be superior to IS tech according to canon. Though I am not convinced that will happen IF Piranha allows players to be clan simply because it would break the game. No matter how much we hope players would populate the universe according to canon and keep things 'fair', when one faction is deemed to be overpowered people will flock to it. It happens in every pvp game. Either they are the type of player who wants to be overpowered so they can win most of the time, or they get tired of getting their Hip actuators handed to them, so they play the 'if you can't beat them, join them' card, it doesnt matter, eventually the perceived stronger side gets higher population, and then the game starts to slide as people get tired of being whipped on one side, and the other side gets tired of having no opponents to whip since they all left [or joined the winning side.] Now, that may not totally happen that way in this game since it is not really an MMO as far as the fights go, but if there is perceived imbalance with the clans and people rush over to that side when they are released, I see the game dying. Sorry for the tangent.

[EDMW CSN]

How is that different from other player owned units that are able to "farm Clan raids" if you assume the Clans are nothing but PvE content ? They will have IS mechs tricked out with Clan tech, some might even boast Omni-mechs.

Also to put it bluntly, I have played enough MMORPGs and MMOFPS to know this. Dating back at least 1999 at the earliest. Stronger guilds often "camp" the raid gate and proceed to murder every single person that is not blue on their screen or wait for the guy to get the lucky drop and steal it from him or kill him before he can obtain it. People are callous, especially in PvP games. Period.


As this is a perceptual PVP game, this problem cannot be avoided. New players who join the game say, a year later after the Clan Invasion will not have the same amount of Clan tech shinies a hardcore "raider" or "salvager" will have. They will always be in the losing end of the tech race.

However for Battletech, there is BV which should help balance out things. You can ride the most tricked out ride in the entire server, but if it is costing 3k+ BV, you better be damn worth your BV in a 5k BV game because you will be easily required to take down 2 to 3 times the number by yourself. And you will be the primary target every head hunting company commander is calling out first.

That alone provides the skill challenge the player needs to do. And god forbid if you lose your connection too, losing the match is one thing, but what happens if you lose your tricked out ride too ?


P.S. Yes I do see the point from RP perspective, but I rather focus on the PVP aspects. Besides if Clans in PvE follow Zellbrigen and batch alls.... It will only lead to easy PvE farming.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 25 December 2011 - 08:22 AM.

[Adian HDragon Vordermark]

Icaza, on 21 December 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

So, right now they're saying that each team will have 12 players on a side which is 4 lances or a company. You know that we should really get 15 players per side when they introduce the Clans since a star has 5 mechs and a trinary has 3 stars. A trinary is roughly equivalent to a company so it only makes sense. Am I right? (Wow that was geeky.)

Xavier Truscott, on 21 December 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yes, but the clans also were very much into fighting with less, so if IS brings 12, clan would have 10, or possibly less.

I would agree for the most part from a true Battletech viewpoint that 12 v 10 is more of what you would see. However without knowing more info on the game mechanics, it would be hard to say what would be best when compairing Clan Omni tech to IS Tech. I would like to remind that any Clan Tech in the Battletech game would also take Clan Omni's and give them the advantage of being able to repair quickly (in a matter of Hours) compaired to the IS Mech (that repair in a matter of Days). This is one of the advantages that really cant be compaired in a MMO. Look at it in a MMO perspective, as who would want to wait Days for an IS mech (or Hours simulated MMO time) to Hours for a Clan Omni (or minutes simulated in a MMO) to be repaired.

The argument about Clan Tech being vastly overpowered also needs to be kept in perspective. Remembr for every Clan weapon, the only advantage they have is Range and Damage, you are not takeing the Heat into account. If you are compairing Rage and damage with heat these weapons also have Huge Heat disadvantatges to give them those range and damage bonuses. The amount of Heat sinks needed to run with these weapons need to be included with the loadout, and that can be quit a disadvantage as well. And as previously mentioned, once you get inside a range where both sides can fire, the range and damage bonuses you are giveing them goes to the IS as they can fire without generateing as much heat.

Also, remember when you make a IS mech, the best mech designs are based on the normal Heat sinks the Engines have, thats 10 or (20) heat disipation for normal mechs. Clans when using lasers in any quantity, have to add Heat Sinks to reduce the excessive heat all of their wepons generate even with double heat sinks. Even with the normal Double Heat sinks giveing a 20 disipation, anyone who knows Clan Mechs will still have a time fireing any long range weapons for long, as the heat will soon limit out. The extra heat sinks needed to reduce the heat generated takes up not only Weight, but Crit spaces as well. Thats alot, and there is really no difference in Armor protection for clan mechs vs IS, with the exception of fewer Crits used with Special Chasis internals or Advanced types of Armor, but the weight is still the same for the armor. Those extra Crits saved for Clan Mechs are for Heat Sink placement.

So with all this said, I still think a 12 vs 10 is more likely in this MMO, as the Omni really only has a limited amount of advantage, and until we know for sure what is being introduced, its hard to say it should be anything else.

Edited by Adian HDragon Vordermark, 25 December 2011 - 08:10 AM.

[Karn Evil]

If the Clans come in, regardless of whether they're playable or simply enemies, I will make my best effort to follow the rules of Zellbrigen when fighting them. I do not expect others to do the same, because this is a game, with a fair number of players who just don't care that much about adhering to the spirit of things, and would rather fight like, well, like typical Inner Sphere mechwarriors.

[EDMW CSN]

2854 T/W Alt A
1310 Kit Fox Alt A
1310 Kit Fox Alt A
------
5474
Tonnage = 135


Steiner "Light Scout Lance"
------
1639 ZEU-9S
1639 ZEU-9S
1639 ZEU-9S
557 COM-5S
------
5474
Tonnage = 265

The tonnage is obviously on the IS side.
Of course this can go either way.

However if Clanners are going to a PvE only content, Piranha will have to devote more hours to making AI and scripted events, I am not sure is this actually worth it for such a PvP focused game.... But we will see.

[Icaza]

I agree with what you're saying [EDMW]CSN, keep the player cap at 12, but make it so it is unlikely at best for a clan unit to field 12 as far as BV is concerned. However, your example is a hopeless battle for the clanners in my opinion. 3 assaults and a light mech against a heavy/low end assault and 2 light mechs. I think they'd have to tweak it so that it's more like the clan players get the next level down in mech or the same level in terms of tonnage, but one less total player. Clan tech is great, but it's not magic.

[Draelren]

I try to stick to zellbrigen even today in MW4 lobbies, until it is broken. I will hold to the code of honor as laid down in clan history until it is broken in MWO. Every match.

[EDMW CSN]

Icaza, on 25 December 2011 - 09:53 AM, said:

I agree with what you're saying [EDMW]CSN, keep the player cap at 12, but make it so it is unlikely at best for a clan unit to field 12 as far as BV is concerned. However, your example is a hopeless battle for the clanners in my opinion. 3 assaults and a light mech against a heavy/low end assault and 2 light mechs. I think they'd have to tweak it so that it's more like the clan players get the next level down in mech or the same level in terms of tonnage, but one less total player. Clan tech is great, but it's not magic.

Actually it ain't that hopeless as it seems. If the Clans keep their smarts about it and Piranha going strictly by TT range.

3 Zeus have 3 ERPPCs that deal 30 dmg in total at 22 to 23 hex range.
Enough to really hurt a Timber Wolf which has 36 points of frontal armor in the CT. And certainly enough to kill the little Kit Fox. However given their speed and range of engagement the Kit Fox will be trying to fight at. This could be tricky,

The Timber Wolf Alt A and Kit Fox Alt A have 2 Clan ERPPCs and 2 Gauss Rifles. Damage projection of 60 damage in 22 hexes.
A Zeus-9S has a mere 26 points of armor in the CT. So a well placed pair of ERPPCs/Gauss rifles will drop the Zeus to structure. Enough for the pilot to consider bailing out.

The 2 ullers can focus fire to take out another Zeus with the , or better, get behind them with their 6/9 speed profile, where 1 shot from the Gauss will cause grievous internal damage. It is harder for the 5/8 Timber Wolf to do so since there are 3 Zeus with 4/6 profiles. So the odds aren't exactly stacked against the Clanners as long they are quick witted about it.


At 21 hexes, the Zeus can engage their LRM-15s to tie up the Kit Foxes, that is why the Clan players have to really watch their ranges for this. 45 missiles will rip up one Kit Fox easily.

However things will change once the Zeus can get into 19 Hex, that is when it can bring their ERPPCs, LRMs AND Er Large Lasers to play. That will really tear up the Clanners but giving the Zeus 4/6 movement profile, it is unlikely. That is where the Commando comes in and distracts the Clanners into making a mistake.

So it isn't that stacked. Yet. Unless the Clanners decide to use Zellbringen and issue batchalls. Then the Timber Wolf pilot better be his worth in BV right there.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 25 December 2011 - 08:07 PM.

[Javin]

See above ^

[045]

Draelren, on 25 December 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

I try to stick to zellbrigen even today in MW4 lobbies, until it is broken. I will hold to the code of honor as laid down in clan history until it is broken in MWO. Every match.

Exactly. Play the game the way you want to play it.
Perhaps a bonus to XP, etc if the clan force adheres to Zellbrigen? A reward for adding some authenticity to the game. Plus the enjoyment of winning on your own terms.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 December 2011 - 07:59 PM, said:

Actually it ain't that hopeless as it seems. If the Clans keep their smarts about it and Piranha going strictly by TT range.

3 Zeus have 3 ERPPCs that deal 30 dmg in total at 22 to 23 hex range.
Enough to really hurt a Timber Wolf which has 36 points of frontal armor in the CT. And certainly enough to kill the little Kit Fox. However given their speed and range of engagement the Kit Fox will be trying to fight at. This could be tricky,

The Timber Wolf Alt A and Kit Fox Alt A have 2 Clan ERPPCs and 2 Gauss Rifles. Damage projection of 60 damage in 22 hexes.
A Zeus-9S has a mere 26 points of armor in the CT. So a well placed pair of ERPPCs/Gauss rifles will drop the Zeus to structure. Enough for the pilot to consider bailing out.

The 2 ullers can focus fire to take out another Zeus with the , or better, get behind them with their 6/9 speed profile, where 1 shot from the Gauss will cause grievous internal damage. It is harder for the 5/8 Timber Wolf to do so since there are 3 Zeus with 4/6 profiles. So the odds aren't exactly stacked against the Clanners as long they are quick witted about it.


At 21 hexes, the Zeus can engage their LRM-15s to tie up the Kit Foxes, that is why the Clan players have to really watch their ranges for this. 45 missiles will rip up one Kit Fox easily.

However things will change once the Zeus can get into 19 Hex, that is when it can bring their ERPPCs, LRMs AND Er Large Lasers to play. That will really tear up the Clanners but giving the Zeus 4/6 movement profile, it is unlikely. That is where the Commando comes in and distracts the Clanners into making a mistake.

So it isn't that stacked. Yet. Unless the Clanners decide to use Zellbringen and issue batchalls. Then the Timber Wolf pilot better be his worth in BV right there.

You forgot one major factor: THIS IS A REAL TIME GAME. Not table top.

[Undead]

I think a single Star of Clan warriors will be a fair match for a company of Inner Sphere dogs, quiaff?

I will honor the rules of zellbrigen laid by our founders until my dishonorable opponent chooses to break them. Given that the commander skill tree includes calling artillery/naval/areospace bombardment, I assume this will happen frequently.

[DragonClaw]

its the biding between the commanders not what units was on planets. IS commanders never would tell what units they had. as a Clan member i would like to see this brought into play.

[Gremlich Johns]

CBS was typically the only Clan to keep Trinaries exclusively as the primary organization. Binaries were most prevalent in the other Clans (novas in the one Clan).

extract from Sarna:

"The Blood Spirits continue to follow the organizational doctrine laid down by Nicholas Kerensky
(three 'Mechtrinaries, one infantry trinary and one vehicle trinary percluster) rather than the modified form used by most
other Clans."

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 04 February 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

It's great to watch you guys make these ridiculous scenarios for or against the original idea. But none of them take into account MWO, that is, the situation in MWO will be fluid, constantly moving. There will be cover - hills, valleys, forests, rubble, rocks. Maps will be balanced for both starting positions. A lot of you also assume that every clan player is perfect in any tactical situation, a dangerous assumption. A rolled-up flank is a rolled-up flank no matter the faction. A broken squad falling back is a broken squad no matter the faction. Finally, remember that bit about infowar? yeah well I feel bad for clan mechs, most aren't built for this form of combat and most clan mechs lack a 'stealth' aspect to them. And before I get flooded with a list of clan mechs that do; how many were from 3050 originally...versus ret-con'd in via subsequent TRO's to be shoehorned into 3050 to make up for this lack?

[Lorcan Lladd]

Meh, more clanners means more salvage; let them come in whatever numbers they will.

[CoffiNail]

Lorcan Lladd, on 07 February 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Meh, more clanners means more salvage; let them come in whatever numbers they will.

15 Clan Assaults vs 16 IS Assaults, oh, the odds. . .

[Lorcan Lladd]

CoffiNail, on 07 February 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

15 Clan Assaults vs 16 IS Assaults, oh, the odds. . .

Yeah, bring in the big and fancy toys, it's not like you stand a chance against the Sphere pilots without them.
Or with them.
Need I remember you of what happened to the Smoke Jaguar?

Edit, sorry, I mean the whole of the Clans.
Sorry about that Comstar business.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 07 February 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Felix Dante]

Semyon Drakon, on 21 December 2011 - 11:20 PM, said:

A equivalent Clan force is bid by Stars...

Actually:
Stars were often broken up in bidding attempts.
Clanner commanders could even bid down to a single unit if they wanted to.
It just depended who bid the fewest number to win the right to fight that enemy.

In this case, my guess is (in the end) we'll be fighting a Clan Binary with our I.S. Company.