15 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

If the autocorrection for homing missiles is the same Angles per Second Lets assume, A slower missile will have an easier time tracking a target, but be able to be shot down easier due to the time it hangs in the air, while a faster missile will have a harder tracking its target, but have an easier time reaching and avoiding being shot down due to its speed.

In this picture the Green missile Travels twice the distance Per second then the Red missile. Both Are assumed to have the same homing autocorrection angle.



Given that Missiles Launcher may have different manufacturers, Perhaps manufacturer / ammo type may affect the speed of missile travel?

Edited by ManDaisy, 12 February 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[The Smith]

It would be really cool if they were integrate thinking like this into the game.

[cartographer]

Certainly sounds interesting, nice representation too.
I think we'll be lucky to have that level of customisation over our weapons, but here's hoping laser cycle times/power output can be tweaked on the high-end stuff, as well as ammunition load-out for autocannons.

[Ravn]

I'd like to see this style of thinking in development. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

[Durant Carlyle]

I'm thinking missiles will have fixed speeds, like in the previous games. Different missile types LRM/MRM/SRM) might have different speeds though.

Like all of the "different manufacturer should equal different weapon stats" threads/posts, this idea is unlikely to happen. The manufacturer of 'Mechs, weapons, equipment, and ammunition isn't really important -- it's just fluff. If you go to the Market screen looking for a Medium Laser, it is highly unlikely that you'll find a huge listing of each and every Medium Laser ever made by any manufacturer. You will simply find one listing for Medium Laser and that's it. Developers simplify stuff like this so they can devote most of their time and resources to more important parts of the game.

[Outlaw2]

Durant Carlyle, on 12 February 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I'm thinking missiles will have fixed speeds, like in the previous games. Different missile types LRM/MRM/SRM) might have different speeds though.

Like all of the "different manufacturer should equal different weapon stats" threads/posts, this idea is unlikely to happen. The manufacturer of 'Mechs, weapons, equipment, and ammunition isn't really important -- it's just fluff. If you go to the Market screen looking for a Medium Laser, it is highly unlikely that you'll find a huge listing of each and every Medium Laser ever made by any manufacturer. You will simply find one listing for Medium Laser and that's it. Developers simplify stuff like this so they can devote most of their time and resources to more important parts of the game.

Like what exactly? Another 20 different atlas heads to sell as vanity items?

Of course we all know that the different manufacturers in the TT was just fluff. Thats pointing out the obvious.

I think these kind of ideas are VERY likely to happen.

Not only does this allow the the devs to make an almost limitless variety of weapons within the cannon constraints of the BT universe....but it also allows the players to BUY an almost limitless variety of weapons at the shop. More gameplay variety for the player, more opportunity to buy things at the shop. Why wouldn't the devs focus on this? Its pretty much a core element of a F2P game.

[VYCanis]

It could be done with a pointbuy type system if weapons have a stat-block.

in terms of missile speeds, you could have some performance bracket for a given class of missile. Like say, i dunno, minimum 200m/s all the way to 1200m/s at max or something.

and so when points are being distributed among the stats, the higher you bump missile speed, the less points there are to spend on other factors.

the hard part would be in knowing how to balance how many points a certain performance niche or stat should cost to make sure that something hideously overpowered doesn't get made, or that no particular stat ends up as the "dump stat".

[Strum Wealh]

I could see "different manufacturers/makes/models" corresponding to different firing patterns ("one-at-a-time" streams, sets-of-five, or clouds representing the launcher's capacity).

However, I would also imagine that the armies of the Successor States requiring each make and model of launcher to be able to fire standardized munitions (with said standards having been established during the time of the First Star League).

For example, a "Holly" SRM-6, a "Bical" SRM-6, and a "Shannon SH-60" SRM-6 might have different firing patterns, but the missiles are identical - an individual FedSuns SRM would have approximately the same diameter, length, launch weight, and engine size as one manufactured in the Combine, the FWL, and so on.
As such, I would think that there would be very little, if any, difference in performance between the missiles themselves (other than those resulting from the different capabilities of the alternate ammunition types.)

As for the actual speeds of the missiles:

• LRMs and SRMs are guided, and about the size of modern shoulder-launched missiles (8.3 kg for LRMs and 10 kg for SRMs), which have flight speeds of ~400-800 m/s (Mach 1.1 to Mach 2.2).
  
• MRMs are unguided, and half the size and mass of LRMs (240 MRMs per ton vs 120 LRMs per ton), making them closer to rockets (like the Hydra 70) used in modern attack helicopters - with similar flight velocities (~400-800 m/s).
  
• Torpedoes - aquatic variants of LRMs and SRMs - only work in water, with modern real-life torpedoes having speeds ranging from "well under 100 knots (120 mph; 190 km/h; 52.78 m/s)" to "over 200 knots (370 km/h; 102.78 m/s)".
  
• Narc missile beacons are much heavier than LRMs and SRMs - on the order of 166.67 kg (367.33 lbs) per missile. Additionally, they have short ranges (same as SRMs) and need to be able to impact a target 'Mech without destroying themselves, implying that they likely have very low flight speeds - likely on the order of ~100-400 m/s.
  
• Arrow IV missiles have a mass of 200 kg (~441 lbs) per missile, and fulfill the role of missile artillery - the same niche filled in reality by cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles, and such. Those examples that come close to that weight range (such as the AGM-65 Mavrick and the Israeli Delilah) have flight speeds in the mid-subsonic to mid-transonic range (Mach 0.3-0.9; ~102-307 m/s).

Your thoughts?

[UncleKulikov]

When you say Shot Down, do you mean by dedicated missile defense systems? I don't like the idea of regular weapons being able to shoot down missiles. But if it's AMS systems, that's totally fine (even the laser based one, it needs to track the missile).

Another thing to consider is that slower moving missiles will be more accurate, but much less effective against faster mechs.

[Ravn]

I'm good with all of this. I'd also like to see different trajectories--straight on, medium arch, javelin straight up and down-- and fuse types as well - proximity, direct impact, timed from launch based on current position...

[nubnub]

I think the different missile speeds could be easily implemented however individual customisation not so much - other aspects should prioritise over this (i.e. melee combat although this wont be done, and gameplay in general). Is is possible to shoot down missiles in other games? or real life?

[Ravn]

nubnub, on 12 February 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Is is possible to shoot down missiles in other games? or real life?

Patriot missiles shot down lots of SCUDs during desert storm. Naval ships have automated turrets to shoot down cruise missiles. Bases in Afghanistan have automated turrets to shoot incoming mortars.

[nubnub]

Ravn, on 13 February 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Patriot missiles shot down lots of SCUDs during desert storm. Naval ships have automated turrets to shoot down cruise missiles. Bases in Afghanistan have automated turrets to shoot incoming mortars.

Ah yes, patriots - but do these actually work? I've heard most of the patriot interceptions were actually false calls and never validated. I've seen vids of the chain-gun defence on ships against missiles but never in action. Is the same tech used for mortars?

[Dlardrageth]

There might be a point, though, where the whole level of complexity becomes unattractive. If you want the graphics to adjust to different missile speeds, tweak the damage modeling and in-game speed-scaling and what not, that's some major coding you're talking about. Because you start messing with a number of core features for nothing but some (minor) fluff.

It is not something as simple as changing the colors of the missile exhaust trails, you'd actually have to check the speeds for each Mech on the battlefield individually in that case, then distribute that data among all clients, then integrate that with speed scaling and then choose graphical depictions for each model. Unless you make it so that it does not actually show in game how fast/slow your missiles are, lot of work for a really minor feature. In particular if you get a sliding scale or multiplicity of options for that.

[Strum Wealh]

nubnub, on 12 February 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

I think the different missile speeds could be easily implemented however individual customisation not so much - other aspects should prioritise over this (i.e. melee combat although this wont be done, and gameplay in general). Is is possible to shoot down missiles in other games? or real life?

There are both ballistics-based AMS (rediscovered by the FedCom in 3040; never lost by the Clans) and laser-based AMS (developed in 3045 by Clan Wolf and 3054 by the FedCom).

There are, to the best of my knowledge, no 'Mech-scale "interceptor/anti-missile missiles", though there are Retro-Streak Warheads that serve as decoys against (only) Streak-system missiles.

As far as other weapons' effect on missiles: it's going to be hard enough to hit other 'Mechs, let alone a missile that's ~6-12 times faster than any 'Mech and several times smaller.

As far as real-life:
Naval ships have "close-in weapon systems" ("CIWS") that they use against missiles and enemy aircraft, and there are systems like MTHEL (see here and here) and the Navy Laser Weapon System (see here) under development.

Also, "success rate vs accuracy" for the MIM-104 Patriot.

Quote

The U.S. Army claimed an initial success rate of 80% in Saudi Arabia and 50% in Israel. Those claims were eventually scaled back to 70% and 40%. However, when President George H. W. Bush traveled to Raytheon's Patriot manufacturing plant in Andover, Massachusetts during the Gulf War, he declared, the "Patriot is 41 for 42: 42 Scuds engaged, 41 intercepted!". The President's claimed success rate was thus over 97% during the war.

On April 7, 1992 Theodore Postol of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and Reuven Pedatzur of Tel Aviv University testified before a House Committee stating that, according to their independent analysis of video tapes, the Patriot system had a success rate of below 10%, and perhaps even a zero success rate.

Also on April 7, 1992 Charles A. Zraket of the Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University and Peter D. Zimmerman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies testified about the calculation of success rates and accuracy in Israel and Saudi Arabia and discounted many of the statements and methodologies in Postol's report.

[Jack Gallows]

LRMs and Streak SRMs probably have a moderately fast speed due to having guidance, Arrow is probably a bit slower but that's a biiig missle with biiig damage and good homing, while stuff like regular SRM and MRM's should be pretty damn fast.

They'll figure out what works best for the game.