49 replies to this topic

[Ketzi]

It should be possible to incorporate some of the classical moves from the tabletop like kicking/punching. It does not have to be the fancy things introduced in Solaris VII... Only the basics from the original box game and maybe some from City Tech.

[Alistair Steiner]

While I voted "within the realm of reason," I'm kind of leaning more towards the lore. Leg a Jenner? Atlas picks up leg and beats enemies with it if they get too close. DFA has a chance to kick in the opponent's cockpit (depending on your angle, etc), but also has a chance to really screw up your 'Mech. I can see a Commando throwing itself behind cover... and also tearing up the armor pretty good. Or a Commando trying the Atlas head-punch, only to miss the cockpit and completely destroy that arm. Crouching would be nice (it makes LRMs arc more in MWLL, as a gameplay mechanic), and I'd like some Warrior-Trilogy-style LRM bludgeoning if the enemy is within minimum range, but at extreme close range. That's how Morgan Kell won his fateful duel (with other factors, I know).

The things you are describing are not only outlandish novel stuff, but many are found within the tabletop (Atlases wielding road girders as melee weapons on occasion, for example). BUT, this kind of thing needs to be VERY hard to pull off. Most heroic, novel-style situations will probably get your butt killed, to avoid people just running up and punching each other. Still, one of the fluff disadvantages of the Catapult is the fact that it has no arms to protect itself at close range. So... arms (like the Dragon or Centurion) should eventually serve some purpose. And of course, what a 'Mech is capable of should depend on both the weight and build of the 'Mech (humanoid or "bird walker"). A limber Commando would be able to sidestep a lot more efficiently than say... a Stalker. But try anything fancy at full speed, and you'll probably be digging a ditch with your face.

[Immitem]

Alistair Steiner, on 04 September 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

While I voted "within the realm of reason," I'm kind of leaning more towards the lore. Leg a Jenner? Atlas picks up leg and beats enemies with it if they get too close. DFA has a chance to kick in the opponent's cockpit (depending on your angle, etc), but also has a chance to really screw up your 'Mech. I can see a Commando throwing itself behind cover... and also tearing up the armor pretty good. Or a Commando trying the Atlas head-punch, only to miss the cockpit and completely destroy that arm. Crouching would be nice (it makes LRMs arc more in MWLL, as a gameplay mechanic), and I'd like some Warrior-Trilogy-style LRM bludgeoning if the enemy is within minimum range, but at extreme close range. That's how Morgan Kell won his fateful duel (with other factors, I know).

The things you are describing are not only outlandish novel stuff, but many are found within the tabletop (Atlases wielding road girders as melee weapons on occasion, for example). BUT, this kind of thing needs to be VERY hard to pull off. Most heroic, novel-style situations will probably get your butt killed, to avoid people just running up and punching each other. Still, one of the fluff disadvantages of the Catapult is the fact that it has no arms to protect itself at close range. So... arms (like the Dragon or Centurion) should eventually serve some purpose. And of course, what a 'Mech is capable of should depend on both the weight and build of the 'Mech (humanoid or "bird walker"). A limber Commando would be able to sidestep a lot more efficiently than say... a Stalker. But try anything fancy at full speed, and you'll probably be digging a ditch with your face.

I basically covered all of this in my series of posts. I could easily see a commando side stepping, jumping, and lunging (not dive rolling) every which direction but at the cost possibly falling and damaging yourself very easily if running when doing so. Said maneuvers (excluding leaning/foot pivoting from behind cover) more or less denied to the larger, heavier mechs with higher centers of gravity. Inversely however at the cost of damage I still think you could fire your jumpjets or roll when tripped to at least give you some chance of survival.

[Alistair Steiner]

To counter this (if they implemented it), there would need to be the possibility of falling over when you lose a lot of weight on one side, specifically losing an arm. I'm thinking gyro control (since it's regulated with the neurohelmet in the novels) would be a pilot skill. Even losing a lot of armor on one side has been described as being enough to make a 'Mech lose its balance and tumble over. So, more limber 'Mechs, perhaps, but also greater chance of ending up in the dirt.

[Immitem]

Alistair Steiner, on 05 September 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

To counter this (if they implemented it), there would need to be the possibility of falling over when you lose a lot of weight on one side, specifically losing an arm. I'm thinking gyro control (since it's regulated with the neurohelmet in the novels) would be a pilot skill. Even losing a lot of armor on one side has been described as being enough to make a 'Mech lose its balance and tumble over. So, more limber 'Mechs, perhaps, but also greater chance of ending up in the dirt.

That is not unreasonable but since we cannot actually control the balance of the mech ourselves it should be easily discernible and have a noticeable detrimental effect on gameplay without crippling the mech and its pilots ability to fight.

Edited by Immitem, 05 September 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[Alistair Steiner]

Right. Which is why it would be a pilot skill we'd invest in. Or we have to quickly "lean" our 'Mech towards the direction of the armor/limb loss to let the gyro catch up. Maybe temporarily change "A" and "D" from turning to leaning when this happens, since turning would put you on your rear for sure if you were losing balance. Eh, just a thought. Unless Razer wants to make neurohelmets too.

[Feindfeuer]

Like the Idea, as the increased mobility is one of the mail sellingpoints of the Mechs, yet they are just very huge tanks that topple over and explode when you shoot them in the equivalent of their tracks.
Nothing extreme, but crouching to reduce the visual silhouette and exposure to enemy fire is one of the rather simple movements that comes to mind. Sidesteps are another thing, though it can be 'emulated' with torsotwist it might be faster to do a 'propper' one in some situations.

The main problem i see here is (besides having to add a lot of new animations) how to keep the controls simple and ituitive while adding those new movement types.

[Immitem]

Feindfeuer, on 05 September 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

The main problem i see here is (besides having to add a lot of new animations) how to keep the controls simple and ituitive while adding those new movement types.

Well key combinations could solve that.

Side stepping: SHIFT+WASD
Jumping: SPACE (when you have no jumpjets)
Foot Pivot: CTRL+WASD
Lunge: ALT+WASD
Roll when downed: AD

Alistair Steiner, on 05 September 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Unless Razer wants to make neurohelmets too.

The gyros in the new Oculus Rift could solve that.

Edited by Immitem, 05 September 2012 - 12:45 AM.

[Sander the Shark]

I desperately want to be able to do this:


The closest I've come to achieving this effect in a MW game is in MW4:Mercs I extended the arm on my Atlas (by looking left) then swung my torso to the right to swat a Summoner that was all up in my grille. It did moderate damage to my arm and heavy damage to the Thor's right torso.

[Terick]

I'll add my comments to the voices already.

The advantage of a mech is beign able to kick tanks.... step on tanks, etc.

The things that aren't in this game. With out melee mechs are large walking tanks. There is one advantage in movement. Mechs are allowed to go up terrain that a tank can't.

You see that cliff in front of you? The mech can go up and over, teh tank... well it ahs to go around. Jumping for mechs is also much easier. Yeah... that doesnt' make logical sense to me, but this isn't a game of logic.

Battletechmechs aren't allowed with normal pilots to make special manuvers. It is the rare special pilot taht can make a bipedal mech side step. One of these piltos is mentioned int eh original TRO 3025 as a notable pilot. I think he pilots a Zeus... of all things he can side step an assault mech.

if you want logic. Tanks are better. Since they can turn on a dime. Have a turret that can face any direction and fire. More then one person in control. One can keep his eyes on the terrain, one lining up the shot and then at least one other looking around the vee to see what is going on.

What a mech has is the fact it can walk on a tank, go up steeper terrain ( they can climb...), easier to make jump, elevated gun platform (can see and shoot things further away), and greater vertical movement of guns. An M1A1 Abrahms has problems firing at a target on top of the cliff it is next to. In a box cannyon with high enough walls the tanks can't shoot down and can't fire up. An infantry force can wipe out a tank force in cities or other restricted terrian. Mechs can fire at targets on top of a building or cliff.

Don't know if it is in teh current rules but mechs used to be allowed to climb up buildings. IF the buildign was strong enough. A commando could climb up a skyscrapper, but taht atlas.... to heavey and it would collapse the building if it tried.

[Adrienne Vorton]

why not go with tanks instead of mechs: mechs were build to carry weapons to places, where a tank normally would get stuck, have you seen some of the terrain we can just walk over? i think a tank could never pass that... now you say hovertank? hovertanks have just too many weaknesses to be a mainbattleunit... i don´t know, but walkin, running and using jumpjets is totally okay for me, i don´t think i´d need anything more than that... mechwarrior battlemechs give me a special feel for those machines, totally different from..say... gundams or what ever japanese manga giant robots are... yes, MechWarrior Battlemechs are kind of bulky, cant jump w/o jets, fly around, make saltos while slamming a giant laser-sword into their oponent and cutting him into half with a "swoooooosh" above his head...

and exactly that is why i like battletech and that univers...

[Adrienne Vorton]

Immitem, on 05 September 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

Well key combinations could solve that.

Side stepping: SHIFT+WASD --->>> maybe, just maybe, i could get used to the thought
Jumping: SPACE (when you have no jumpjets) ---->>> ahm...no...thanks... thats what jumpjets are there for...you can´t pass an obsticle? walk around it or use your JJ´s
Foot Pivot: CTRL+WASD --->>>> BUUURGHS!!!
Lunge: ALT+WASD --->>> no comment
Roll when downed: AD --->>>> ... you know that a BattleMech (we are still talking BT/MW here) that is downed is a turtle on it´s back? that its hard work for the pilot to get it up again? i can´t see them rolling, sry... did you see robocop? ED209 on its back, the chicken legs high in the sky? now make this one about 35 tons heavier and see it roll around, or better, do a somersault...

i´d even more prefer key combos for only getting back on your feet again... THAT would be realistic..

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 05 September 2012 - 03:53 AM.

[Sander the Shark]

Another point in the tank v. 'mech debate is the way they are built.

A tank is essentially an armored shell containing explosives (ammunition) and flammables (fuel, people.)

A 'mech on the other hand is built around the skeletal frame of its internal structure, wrapped in armor which is by and large applied more densely than on a tank of equivalent mass.

This makes a 'mech inherently tougher. A single hit with a heavy weapon (gauss rifle, AC/20, Arrow IV, etc.) can blow through the armor of a tank, but for a 'mech it takes several hits to chew through the internal structure.

[Strum Wealh]

From Mercenaries Supplemental II, pg. 17-18:

Quote

The first Noisiel Summer Games were held in 3047, when Duke Michael - founder and CEO of Alextep Engineering Services (an interstellar producer of civilian and military engineering vehicles and equipment) - challenged his son and chief business rival, Heinrich (himself founder and CEO of Heinrich SupporTech Interstellar), to a unique form of BattleMech duel. Intended to resolve a professional conflict over who would bid on a government contract, the Alexteps planned to hold their duel in public on the rolling hills of Duke Michael’s Teppokhan Prime estate and invited all citizens to attend. The modest ticket price, both men also decided, would be divided evenly among local charities and a fund to pay for any repairs needed on the two family-owned Atlases used in the duel.
But while both Alexteps were accomplished MechWarriors and their machines would carry live ammunition, this was not to be a conventional duel by any stretch of the imagination.
Instead, Duke Michael’s challenge amounted to a one-on-one game of BattleMech-sized rugby, with a large, half-ton, ballistic-polymer sphere serving as the ball and a full square kilometer of the Alextep estate serving as the playing field.

The event, advertised by local media consortiums on several neighboring worlds, brought scores of spectators and proved an amazing success, and in the wake of the Clan invasion—after the younger Alextep served a tour in the AFFC on the Clan front—the Noisiel Summer Games became a part of local tradition and a huge boost for the planet’s tourism and entertainment industries.
In the years after the Clan invasion, the Alextep family has vastly expanded their Games to include a wide range of sports and opened the competitions to MechWarriors from Solaris and well as mercenaries looking for a break from the backstabbing politics of normal Inner Sphere life. Now a 12-day event held every local summer, the Games are part ’Mech show and part talent competition, but one which emphasizes more piloting skill and finesse than kill ratios. MechWarriors taking part in the Games are expected to compete in a variety of sports “upgraded” to BattleMech scale, including baseball, football, hockey, and chess. Unique BattleMech-based “talent shows”, parades, and pageants round out these festivities.

(emphasis mine)

From TechManual, pg. 40:

Quote

When hand actuators are present on a ’Mech, most of their actions require little input from the MechWarrior. As I’ll describe later, ’Mechs generally have enough intelligence to recognize a simple “grab command” as aimed by a control stick and crosshairs, and can thus pick up improvised clubs or cargo without detailed input from the MechWarrior. Punching is trivial: click the punch mode switch, aim the crosshairs, and pull the punch trigger. Ditto for using clubs and hatchets. For fine hand manipulations, sensors built into the gloves of MechWarriors or separate waldo gloves can allow a ’Mech to mimic the gestures of its MechWarriors, at least when the glove sensors are activated.

Of course, BattleMechs can do more than just turn left or right, or move backwards and forwards. Talented MechWarriors have gotten assault ’Mechs to skip sideways to avoid missiles, executed handstands under carefully controlled conditions, and otherwise tapped some of the often-unused potential of a BattleMech’s limbs for complicated movements. For now, you’re just getting the two-kroner overview.

More complicated movements involve more complicated combinations of controls. The steering pedals don’t just push back and forth. They can also tilt and twist. Throttle control levers and fire control can also provide steering and movement input. And while neurohelmets primarily serve to correct balance, they can help clarify the MechWarrior’s intent to the BattleMech.

(emphasis mine)

Also, from the last section of chapter 20 of Falcon Guard (pgs. 117-118):

Quote

Joanna came into Aidan's office one day. "Go to your window, Star Colonel," she said.

Looking out, he saw the entire Falcon Guards on the field, all the pilots in their 'Mechs, all the Elementals in their battle armor. MechWarrior Diana stood on a recently constructed platform. At a signal from Joanna, she gestured toward the assembled troops.

In almost a single precise movement, all the BattleMechs, all the Elementals, raised their left arms to a chest-high position. This was followed by the right arms, which went past the chest position and raised up, stopping at an oblique angle, all of them in approximately the same position. Then each arm was lowered separately.

At the next signal from Diana, each of the BattleMech torsos inclined first to the right, stopped simultaneously, then in synchronization, inclined to the left. After holding the pose for a moment, all the BattleMechs returned to the upright position.

These were just the beginning of nearly an hour of precise drills, sometimes just the BattleMechs, sometimes just the Elementals. At the end, they formed into marching units and left the field in a precision drill.

Aidan, who had been spellbound by the demonstration, finally turned to Joanna and said, "I am impressed. But just what in the name of Kerensky was happening there?"

"Well, in one sense, you have just witnessed the universe's first BattleMech calisthenic drill. In another, you have seen I have done my job. You can go into battle with some confidence in the Falcon Guards. They are still a bunch of aging or eccentric warriors, but they are now a unit. Sir."
"I have seen your work over the last two weeks, Star Commander. I have known for some time that your mission was a success. And in good time, it seems. Our orders are to proceed to Tukayyid in two days. I appreciate what you have done, Joanna."

Joanna did not acknowledge either the credit or the familiar use of her name. As usual, Aidan could not be sure what she was thinking. She probably hated him as much as ever.

"At the beginning of this," he said, "you did not think much of my plan. What do you say now?"
"The plan was chancy, but it worked."
"Thanks to you, Star Commander."
"That is also true."

(emphasis mine)

BattleMechs are quite a lot more than just "walking tanks", with both the official rulebooks and the canon novels describing such feats as side-skipping, calisthenics, and even analogs of various sports being within their capabilities.

However, most home computer users don't have the hardware to take advantage of those capabilities, and most players would generally have little or no use for the vast majority of such abilities.

That being said, the movements demonstrated in the Heavy Gear (which is produced by the Montreal-based Dream Pod 9, making HG a Canadian - NOT Japanese - mecha series) video provided in the opening post are, as far as BT canon is concerned, easily within most BattleMechs' capabilities.

The question is, are the MWO Devs able and/or willing to implement such maneuverability?
If such maneuverability were implemented, what would or should be the general reaction of the playerbase?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 September 2012 - 04:49 AM.

[AlexEss]

Also tumbling and leaps were common in the early novels too so it is sort of in the canon... Even if i have a hard time seeing how a handful of warheads could do more damage to a armour panel then a 30 ton warmachine travelling a 40-50 Kmph suddenly place all of it's weight and momentum on it.

[Mel Mad Dog Winters]

Personally, I would just like to see jump jets eventually have functionality somewhat on par with what mechs can do in the Battletech board game. I pretty much still go with jump jets out of old love for them. I’m not saying they are useless or anything like that, just saying I love how they can be used in the board game.

I don’t expect this to happen. I’ve never seen this in the computer games I’ve played to date.

It would be nice if as you are hitting the space bar for thrust and height, you could also jet in any direction like in the board game. For example jump up and back (in the opposite direction you were running in with a sudden vector change) and land behind the person tailing you. I’d really like that.

However, like I said, I’ve never seen implementation in computer games to match the mobility of the board game jump jets. I’m not expecting to see it either.

Edited by Mel Mad Dog Winters, 05 September 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[TROWAHC]

Immitem, on 04 September 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

For clarification I am not talking about fast moving Japanese mechs, I am talking about stuff that for no conceivable reason the mechs shouldn't be able do with what they are already capable of doing.

Something I have noted is that for that vast majority of its existence the way mechs handled in the videogames has seen little alteration beyond large tanks. At the same time the fluff often details the superior maneuverability of the mechs with fantastical examples such as doing a forward hand spring **** (f-l-i-p is now a censored word... WHAT?!) in a light mech to more realisticly lunging suddenly in any direction.

With all this detailing of maneuverability being one of the main pros of the mech over the much more ergonomical tank why has none of this ever appeared in any of the games?

I am not asking to suddenly do gundam style flips and other hokey stuff but being able to lunge in any direction with a chance of falling over if you are going too fast at the gain of cover can add more strategy to navigating your environment .

Pivot on a foot to partially leave cover and quickly return (40 seconds into the video)


Give a small running jump to clear low level obstacles.

What happened to crouching?!

Or even rolling or engaging jumpjets after being knocked down at the cost of damage and taking longer to get up.

So what do you think? The books have established the mechs can do more than simply be a walking tank with a larger profile, should they be given more options of maneuverability?

Ok so first off you state that mechs are ment to have superior maneuverability. Have you ever seen a tank with jump jets? Or move up the inclines that are in the game maps? Or turned quickly while still at full speed? Don't worry, I'll answer for you. It's NO.
And more importantly the video you showed is for Heavy Gear. A completely different sci-fi universe to Mechwarrior. So don't think you can prove an argument by showing something that has no relevence to the universe in question.

And secondly. most tanks carry two weapons a cannon of some description, and a mounted chain gun. How many weapons can you carry on a Atlas for example? A **** ton more.

In conclusion if you think tanks are better then whats on offer here in MWO then go play that game.

[Cuddles]

I voted for within reason. I can't see any reason not to have sidestepping and jumping in the game. Melee might be nice, but I think implementation and balancing would be major problems.

As for the people defending mechs being better than tanks, you have to look at what mechs actually are, not what they're claimed to be. For example, being able to cross rougher, steeper, and so on, terrain. In every MechWarrior game so far, tanks have been able to go everywhere mechs can. If mechs really are better at tanks, you have to show us. It's no good just saying they are, then treating them exactly the same. Similarly, the thing about construction. Tanks are just a chassis and gun while mechs have limbs? So tanks don't have tracks and multiple turrets? How is a mech with torso, legs, head and arms any different from a tank with chassis, tracks, main turret and side turrets? Same number of sections, same potential for compartmentalisation. They're different because we're told they're different, not because there's actually any difference to see.

Of course, it's all pretty easy to solve. Have tanks actually not able to go where mechs can go. Have them less manouverable. Have them more vulnerable. It's all in the lore, it's just not been done properly in any game yet.

TROWAHC, on 05 September 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

And secondly. most tanks carry two weapons a cannon of some description, and a mounted chain gun. How many weapons can you carry on a Atlas for example? A **** ton more.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Challenger
8 weapons, 39 tons + Artemis IV and AMS, at least 5 tons of ammo.
http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29
7 weapons, 31 tons, at least 3 tons of ammo.

Challenger has more and heavier weapons, despite being 10 tons lighter. And it's far from the only tank to be able to carry a similar level armament to a mech in its weight class.

[Sander the Shark]

TROWAHC, on 05 September 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Have you ever seen a tank ... turned quickly while still at full speed? Don't worry, I'll answer for you. It's NO.

I have actually seen this.

The M1 Abrams can do a full-tread reversal J-turn at 40 miles an hour (Reversing at full speed, shifting one tread into neutral to make the hull slide into a 180, then putting both treads into full forward) while keeping its gun locked on a target the size of a skateboard three miles away.

[Sander the Shark]

Cuddles, on 05 September 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

As for the people defending mechs being better than tanks, you have to look at what mechs actually are, not what they're claimed to be. For example, being able to cross rougher, steeper, and so on, terrain. In every MechWarrior game so far, tanks have been able to go everywhere mechs can. If mechs really are better at tanks, you have to show us. It's no good just saying they are, then treating them exactly the same. Similarly, the thing about construction. Tanks are just a chassis and gun while mechs have limbs? So tanks don't have tracks and multiple turrets? How is a mech with torso, legs, head and arms any different from a tank with chassis, tracks, main turret and side turrets? Same number of sections, same potential for compartmentalisation. They're different because we're told they're different, not because there's actually any difference to see.

Tanks can climb hills but they do so much, much more slowly. Also they are confounded by water which 'mechs can simply wade through.

Let me state again that almost any critical damage a tank sustains, be it to its hull, treads, or main turret, removes it from the fight. Hitting the front of the hull kills the driver. Hitting the rear of the hull wrecks the engine. Hitting the sides of the hull (the treads) throws a tread, immobilizing the tank. Hitting the turret guts the turret and destroys its weapons.

A mech can have a leg wrecked and still limp around. It can lose one or both arms and still fight with weapons housed in its torso. And it takes more hits to chew through the armor and internal structure of a 'mech than it takes to blow through the armor of a tank.

Quote

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Challenger
8 weapons, 39 tons + Artemis IV and AMS, at least 5 tons of ammo.
http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29
7 weapons, 31 tons, at least 3 tons of ammo.

Challenger has more and heavier weapons, despite being 10 tons lighter. And it's far from the only tank to be able to carry a similar level armament to a mech in its weight class.

Your Challenger tank is three centuries up on technology from the original Atlas. (Before you say 'technological regression' look at the equipment list on the Challenger vs. the AS7-D. And furthermore the Challenger is designed and built by Kallon Industries, who are well known for producing some of the very finest war machines to be found in the Inner Sphere.

But if you look at a more modern variant of the Atlas like the -K or the -S2 you see that with the inclusion of ERLLs its firepower is superior to the Challenger tank. And also the tank can not punch a Warhawk in the face.