41 replies to this topic

[Evedro Solais]

Ok so after reading the missile range thread it got me thinking: How are large ballistic munitions going to be treated past effective range. First I want to define effective range

Effective range is the range at which conventional aiming is not effective. Based on a projectiles velocity (Straight line to 45 degrees, past that and the range doubles back at an equal rate) at the maximum effective range, one of two things happens. A) The bullet touches ground as shot across a flat surface(Low Power Projectile, LPP) which also indicates max range, or aiming innacuracies at range magnify to the point that only a fixed turret with advanced tracking could reliably shoot past that range (High Powered Projectiles, HPP)

The assortment of ballistic weaponry of Mechwarrior contains both scenarios though most fall into the high powered catagory. My question is will or should ballistics be derendered after the maximum range, or will they be given full physics until the collide with something, then derender. Discuss

[Tezz LaCoil]

I think some ballistics should derender, and others should continue on their trajectories as according to real word physics. When it comes to shotgun-like weapons, their spread renders them nearly useless beyond max effective range. De-rendering would lower the load, and the effects can be accounted for invisibly by programming. Shells, they are a different story. Shells can still do considerable damage past their effective range, and therefore should DEFINITELY be rendered, so snipers can still get their fill. Plus, it would look great on the environment, the aftereffects of fully rendered and physically affected rounds.

[Anvil Dragon]

With some munitions keeping track of them after a certain range serves no purpose. Others like short range missles might explode after a certain time limit or risk being recovered for components. Long range, if possible I hope to take advantage of long unguided flights to use much like artillary. Lobbing over the effective radar range and out of the line of site and yes with a low probability of getting splash damage but with a high probability of effecting a change in the opponents plans. IE as a tactical tool.

Edited by Anvil Dragon, 27 February 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Exilyth]

other - solid slugs travel in a ballistic arc, e.g. they'll hit the terrain/map edge at some point and as such should keep their visual/physical properties until that happens.

LBX on the other hand, I wouldn't mind disappearing in mid air at their maximum range. Maybe, the particles could be stopped/slowed down at maximum range, after which they start to fade from glowing white/yellow over red to black and slowly sink to ground and/or get blown away by the wind. Whatever the case, LBX should stop affecting stuff at max range.

Edited by Exilyth, 27 February 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Well, the Weapon and Equipment Lists on Sarna list a "long" and "extreme" range for the majority of weapons.
(Keep in mind that the ranges are listed in hexes, and one hex = 30 meters.)

Perhaps the "long" range might represent the maximum effective range (at which the weapon would still function normally, deal its full rated damage to a target, and so on), while the "extreme" range might represent the absolute maximum range (ballistic projectiles and missiles (having run out of fuel at "long" range) fall to the ground, the blooming effect on energy weapons renders them impotent, and so on), with there being a gradual damage drop-off from the rated damage to zero damage between the "long" and "extreme" ranges...

Your thoughts?

[Evedro Solais]

@Strum Wealh: I totally agree beyond the effective range damage should be capped but since we can now track object velocity I beilieve the impact damage should be entirely velocity based so arced shots do less damage but leave the exlplosive charge in shells unaltered regardless of range. Granted that would need some tweaking for performance/balance isues but its what feels right, ya know?

[daytrader]

Well, I think it'd be accurate to have all ballistic projectiles travel at full damage, with the maximum range only being a useful guide, until impact with target/ground, since they're only very mildly affected by drag. LBX pellet de-rendering makes sense if each one does only 1 point of damage.

The devs could just save time and go by the maximum possible range by shooting a weapon at a 45° angle and noting the distance at which the round impacts the ground. This is unless there's a significant shot drift model implemented. In which case it'd probably make more sense to say that maximum range is the maximum effective range at which 90% of fired rounds impact within a 5x5meter circle. (more than that and you'd have serious trouble hitting the broad side of an atlas)

E: If you want to simulate drag, (as a linear multiplyer that halves velocity every 1200m or something?) even mildly, you also have to simulate wind and account for atmospheric pressures if non-standard. All three of these are super-awesome to have, but unnecessary.

Edited by daytrader, 27 February 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[Sug]

Do we need to see projectiles? I haven't been able to see what I've fired since my Red Ryder BB gun...

Missiles should definitely not derender. Maybe have their boosters cut out and they crash to the ground. Or something.

[TheRulesLawyer]

I'd rather not see max range as a hard stop. I'd rather see it as the point past where you start to lose damage and the aim circle is so large that hitting is a matter of random chance. At least for Ballistics. Energy weapons need more of a hard cap since there is very little down side to taking low percentage shots.

[daytrader]

Sug, on 27 February 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Do we need to see projectiles? I haven't been able to see what I've fired since my Red Ryder BB gun...

By that logic lasers should be invisible and instant and missiles should be at least 100x as fast as they look in the MW games.

[Sug]

daytrader, on 27 February 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

By that logic lasers should be invisible and instant and missiles should be at least 100x as fast as they look in the MW games.

Yep.

[Felicitatem Parco]

How about (for ballistics/energy weapons):

• Damage = 100% if impact takes place within effective range
  
• Damage = 66% if impact takes place in the window of 100.1% - 105% effective range
  
• Damage = 33% if impact takes place within 105.1% - 110% effective range
  
• Damage = 10% if impact is within 110.1% - 115% of the effective range.
  
• Damage = 0 if beyond 115% of effective range

Also, starting at the end of effective range, have the ballistic slug begin a nose-dive or a downward corkscrew toward the ground to simulate the unstable wobble of a projectile that's traveled beyond the range where the spin created by barrel rifling is no longer sufficient to maintain a true flight-path.

And... At the end of effective range have lasers or other energy weapons just begin to dimm-down until they fade entirely, according to the damage profile outlined above.

Just a suggestion; I don't know if this is programmably-viable.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 27 February 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Mims]

when maximum range has been achieved.

-Slugs loose sufficant kinetic energy to pierce.
-Lasers fade.
-Missles drop when out of propelant.

[Kartr]

Here's something to think about. AC's fire bursts which means they are going to be less accurate the more larger caliber rounds are fired. It's not one projectile that's doing the damage it's multiple projectiles striking close together that does the damage. Max effective range isn't going to be where the velocity of an AC isn't sufficient to do damage, it's going to be the point where the group is to spread out to do the rated damage. As such I'm a fan of having each round in an AC burst tracked and the rounds not disappear.

Up to and at max effective range the rounds will hit the same portion of the enemy 'Mech they're aimed at. A short distance past that and a shot that's aimed at the center torso might see one round hit center, one left and one right and one miss completely. So instead of doing 0 damage you do 1/4 damage to left right and center torso. Eventually your spread will get so large it won't hit anything short of a very large building that houses livestock.

[Sug]

Kartr, on 27 February 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

AC's fire bursts which means they are going to be less accurate the more larger caliber rounds are fired. It's not one projectile that's doing the damage it's multiple projectiles striking close together that does the damage.

I thought that depended on what company made the autocannon. The 2/5/10/20 designation is based on the damage caused. not the caliber or burst count of the rounds.

[Kartr]

Different companies make different models with different caliber rounds and different number of rounds per burst, but according to the AC fluff in the Revised Master Rules and on Sarna, they all fire bursts. Since they all fire bursts their effective range is based on the grouping not the actual decrease in velocity or anything else.

[Strum Wealh]

Prosperity Park, on 27 February 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

How about (for ballistics/energy weapons):

• Damage = 100% if impact takes place within effective range
  
• Damage = 66% if impact takes place in the window of 100.1% - 105% effective range
  
• Damage = 33% if impact takes place within 105.1% - 110% effective range
  
• Damage = 10% if impact is within 110.1% - 115% of the effective range.
  
• Damage = 0 if beyond 115% of effective range

Also, starting at the end of effective range, have the ballistic slug begin a nose-dive or a downward corkscrew toward the ground to simulate the unstable wobble of a projectile that's traveled beyond the range where the spin created by barrel rifling is no longer sufficient to maintain a true flight-path.



And... At the end of effective range have lasers or other energy weapons just begin to dimm-down until they fade entirely, according to the damage profile outlined above.

Just a suggestion; I don't know if this is programmably-viable.

As one alternative proposal...

For energy salvos:

(extreme range) - (long range) - X
The firing angle θ = 0°

Damage at long range = 100% of canon-listed damage
Damage at long range + 0.10*X = 90% of canon-listed damage
Damage at long range + 0.20*X = 80% of canon-listed damage
Damage at long range + 0.30*X = 70% of canon-listed damage
...
Damage at long range + 1.00*X = damage at extreme range = 0

For explosive-and-unpowered ballistic (e.g. Standard (HEAP) AC rounds, artillery cannon rounds) and solid-and-unpowered ballistic (e.g. Gauss Rifles, individual LB-X sub-munitions, MG bullets) salvos:

Implement external ballistics in such a way that the shell hits the ground at the canon-listed long range when the weapon is fired horizontally (the firing angle θ = 0°), and that the same shell fired from the same weapon will hit the ground at the canon-listed extreme range and when the weapon is fired at an elevated angle (θ = 45°).

Damage for explosive projectiles is constant (as the warhead is the primary damage mechanism, with KE playing a relatively minor role), while damage for non-explosive projectiles is both proportional to its velocity and a function of both potential and kinetic energies:
PE = (mass of projectile) * (local gravity) * (altitude difference between firing position and impact position)
KE = 0.5 * (mass of projectile) * (square of velocity of projectile)
KE_i + PE_i = KE_f + PE_f
KE_i - PE_i = 0
KE_f - PE_f = 0
(velocity) = (2.0 * (local gravity) * (altitude difference between firing position and impact position))^(0.5)



Explosive projectiles should detonate when they hit the ground (or a target, or anything else), while non-explosive projectiles strike the ground and impart the appropriate amount of damage (as a function of velocity, KE, and PE).

For missiles (powered, explosive ordinance) salvos:

Missiles can maintain their normal powered flight profile (horizontal (the launch angle θ = 0°) for SRMs, shallow (θ = ~15°) parabolic/ballistic arcs for MRMs, moderate (θ = ~30°) parabolic/ballistic arcs for LRMs, and high/large (θ = ~45°) parabolic/ballistic arcs for Mech Mortars and Arrow IV artillery) until they reach their respective long range distances, at which point they run out of fuel and becone unpowered ballistic projectiles capable of limited tracking (when available) and coasting/falling out to their extreme range, at which point they hit the ground (or a target, or anything else) and detonate.

Your thoughts?

[Kartr]

Strum Wealh, on 27 February 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Implement external ballistics in such a way that the shell hits the ground at the canon-listed long range when the weapon is fired horizontally (the firing angle θ = 0°), and that the same shell fired from the same weapon will hit the ground at the canon-listed extreme range and when the weapon is fired at an elevated angle (θ = 45°).

Most of that sounds pretty reasonable except for the part I quoted. This part I have issue with because the ranges aren't based on how far the shells will travel for AC's, but rather on when the grouping exceeds a certain diameter. The rounds should travel much further, but their divergent paths means they don't strike close enough to do full rated damage and eventually will spread out enough that they'll fly past a 'Mech sized target on all sides.

I think it'd add a nice level of strategy if we could buy/salvage AC's that were rated the same, but were from different manufacturers. That way if one driver preferred a very large bore AC who's rounds would separate faster so that each round would do half damage to which ever location they hit past maximum range (20pts to center torso at and below max, 10 center 10 left/right just past max for example) or more smaller rounds of which more would strike in the same area for longer. The second might do 10 center, 5 left 5 right at just past max or maybe 15 center 2 left 3 right depending on the physics/dice. Something to think about and it would add variety.

[Damocles]

what is missing in most of these arguments is the effectiveness and properties of the armor which these ballistics are striking against.

Possible it is a very specific amount of energy required to cause damage and that efficiency is immediately dropped off after that range is expended.

[Kartr]

Damocles, on 27 February 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

what is missing in most of these arguments is the effectiveness and properties of the armor which these ballistics are striking against.

Possible it is a very specific amount of energy required to cause damage and that efficiency is immediately dropped off after that range is expended.

This can't be the case because missiles have a very low velocity when compared to AC's and AC's have a much much lower velocity than Gauss rifles and Lasers have no mass therefor no velocity.