46 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

A noob question I suppose but still ...
I was always wondering why is that there are no mechs above the 100 tons limit?
When you look at the Behemoth compared to Atlas and Daishi/DireWolf you'd think it should weight more than them?

[Mchawkeye]

This, I think, is one of those table top game things. 100tons at the top, falling in 5 ton increments is an easy way to calculate things like tonnage balanced games. It just an easy number, easy set to work with.

The fact is, unless those machines were made of aerogel, they would all weigh significantly more than the tonnages stated. I mean, small armour unit (like, say Warrior TAV) weighs 25 tons, the Challenger 2 MBT weighs nearly 70. and these are just tanks, never mind mechs the size of a house.

But, those tonnages are what the game set and it's one of the more arbitrary elements that I have no issue with; they balance off quite nicely, the concept is easy to grasp.

[Semyon Drakon]

The tonnages were explained away as beinf lighter than expected because the mechs bones are made of foamed ferro-titanium, an alloy of steel and titanium that is literally blown into foam before being set into the boulds for the bone chapes.

Armour is a light because it's ferro - fobrous, amixture of steel and carbon fibre or a kevlar like sunstance, much the same as the Chobham armour in a modern tank.

Macks were designed to keep the weight of armour and structyre down so as to allow the biggest engines and largest weapon loadouts per chassis. Bones and armour were bulky but incredibly light.

Semyon

[Kartr]

Semyon Drakon, on 29 February 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

The tonnages were explained away as beinf lighter than expected because the mechs bones are made of foamed ferro-titanium, an alloy of steel and titanium that is literally blown into foam before being set into the boulds for the bone chapes.

That doesn't actually explain why they're not heavier than they're claimed to be. Even with "foamed skeleton's" the 'Mechs would weigh much more than modern battle tanks.

Semyon Drakon, on 29 February 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Armour is a light because it's ferro - fobrous, amixture of steel and carbon fibre or a kevlar like sunstance, much the same as the Chobham armour in a modern tank.

What about 'Mechs that are armored in standard armor? Or hardened armor? Or any other variants of armor that aren't ferro-fiborus? Also Chobam isn't kevlar based but rather ceramic based, according to a quick wiki search so wrong again.

Semyon Drakon, on 29 February 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Macks were designed to keep the weight of armour and structyre down so as to allow the biggest engines and largest weapon loadouts per chassis. Bones and armour were bulky but incredibly light.

Semyon

Every military vehicle is designed to minimize weight and maximize firepower/speed. There's nothing in this statement that helps pin down how successful they were, or how they were successful enough to create 'Mechs of the weights given in the game.

The weights are completely arbitrary and designed to create a baseline for the capabilities of 'Mechs.

Edited by Kartr, 29 February 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

BattleTech is the SicFi of the 80's - to try to match todays warfare with Mech Warfare is nonsense.
Next thin BattleTech Armor is ablative! Do you know any modern time armor - that could be damaged by light weapons but is on the other hand capable of stopping a 120mm HighVelocity round?

Why only 100tons? I think 100tons is really massive - considering that you want a unit that doesn't get stuck on normal terrain. On the other hand the superheavy verhicles of W40K are superlative failures because with there mass they will crush there own tracks

Kartr, on 29 February 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

That doesn't actually explain why they're not heavier than they're claimed to be. Even with "foamed skeleton's" the 'Mechs would weigh much more than modern battle tanks.

You know the weight of a Fusion Engine? The weight of Myomer?


BattleTech is the SicFi of the 80's - to try to match todays warfare with Mech Warfare is nonsense.
Next thin BattleTech Armor is ablative! Do you know any modern time armor - that could be damaged by light weapons but is on the other hand capable of stopping a 120mm HighVelocity round?

Why only 100tons? I think 100tons is really massive - considering that you want a unit that doesn't get stuck on normal terrain. On the other hand the superheavy verhicles of W40K are superlative failures because with there mass they will crush there own tracks

[ice trey]

Well, 'mech engines have the issue of getting exponentially heavier as you go.

While light 'mech engines are not that heavy, a 400-rated engine (Enough to get a 100-tonner to run at 64 KPH) weighs in at 52 tons - more than half the weight of the 'mech in the first place.

Once you get past the 400 rated engines, 'mechs become horribly inefficient, becoming little more than turrets.
On the flip side, you could theoretically make 'mechs of under 20 tons, but they'd be inefficient, too - Equipment like cockpits, sensor arrays, etc. are fixed tonnage. You end up chewing up a good chunk of your 'mechs' weight capacity with dead weight equipment, more or less forcing you to choose between negligible armor and weapons, or no weapons at all.

[pursang]

Arbitrarily assigned numbers? We may never know. I do agree that your average 'Mech will weigh in significantly more then any MBT, weight-saving materials or not. And there's technically nothing stopping anyone from making a lighter design like the protomechs or heavier 'Mechs like the Colossus-class.

[Arctic Fox]

There are, the Word of Blake introduces the 150-ton Omega in minor quantities during the end of the Jihad (There's also the Ares from the Dark Age game but we don't know much about it yet except that it looks silly). The reason for there not being any until then is cited as practical limitations of the chassis, myomer muscles, actuator and engine, and the reason they're pretty much not used at all even afterwards is that they're way too expensive and not particularly useful.

Incidentally, the Behemoth actually started out as an attempt to create a 'Mech that weighs more than 100 tons and the original design failed utterly.

[PhoenixFire55]

Thanks for replies guys ...

[Stripes]

There is two canon facts - Mechs below 20 tonns called "protomechs" (imo - they just elementals on steroids), and mechs larger then 100 tonns were simply outlawed during Star League era. End after collaps of League... lets just say, people got better things to do, then try to build something huge and inefficient.

Well, using Clan based tech and geometry you probably could build mech with mass over 100 tonns... Maybe qudra... But the main qusteion - why the Hell you need something like that, thing that no one tryed to build before you?

[GuntherK]

Military machines allways have to consider maximum weight and size for practical matters.
On the real world there is no 100 tons tank. Why ? It wouldnt be capable to drive on roads, cross bridges or tunnels, travel by train... and it would be a big, fat target for artilery and airforces.

Check this one... it had submarine engines... kind of a land boat

http://en.wikipedia....anzer_VIII_Maus

[Arctic Fox]

'Mechs below 20 tons are just called Ultralights, and though I recall there were construction rules for them at some point I'm not sure if they're canon. ProtoMechs have some more interesting features that distinguish them from actual 'Mechs, mostly having to do with the EI system which allows the pilot to control the ProtoMech directly without external controls (and also drives him insane and kills him in short order).

[ice trey]

Arctic Fox, on 29 February 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

'Mechs below 20 tons are just called Ultralights, and though I recall there were construction rules for them at some point I'm not sure if they're canon. ProtoMechs have some more interesting features that distinguish them from actual 'Mechs, mostly having to do with the EI system which allows the pilot to control the ProtoMech directly without external controls (and also drives him insane and kills him in short order).

Ultralights exist, but in the canon they only exist as Industrial 'mechs made for non-combat roles like agriculture, construction, and freight transport.

[Stripes]

I know who protomech are, you guys know who protomech are - but there is a 6.5 milliard people in world who not hardcore BT fans

[Semyon Drakon]

I think someone missed the point. Foamed ferro-titanium isn't mostly ferro-titanium it's mostly air. Incredibly strong in weight and torsion situations but incredibly light.

The armour is also, incredibly light, and very strong in ablative terms. Specialist armours still use the base armour matrix with additional top layers to enhance a certain level of protection.

When I say 'much the same' I am drawing a loose compairon, not saying 'exactly like'.

End of rant

Mechs weight what they do because the authors and all the other wonderful gents who wrote the fluff decided that's what they weight. End of story.

Semyon

[nubnub]

I'm pretty sure there were some mechs over 100 tonnes. I think some of them had four legs.

[PhoenixFire55]

GuntherK, on 29 February 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Military machines allways have to consider maximum weight and size for practical matters.
On the real world there is no 100 tons tank. Why ? It wouldnt be capable to drive on roads, cross bridges or tunnels, travel by train... and it would be a big, fat target for artilery and airforces.

Check this one... it had submarine engines... kind of a land boat

http://en.wikipedia....anzer_VIII_Maus

Yeah, I suppose a WWII german 'little mouse' is a perfect example. Funny how they started with the blitzkrieg strategy and all, where mobility of the armed forces was the key and ended up building that thing. If I'm not mistaken the upper armor of Maus tank is as thin as on an APC. Just need to drop a hand grenade from a balloon on it and its done.

[frostfly]

While the Maus wasn't finished in time to see combat. There is one surviving example..sorta in russia. They kinda bolted together the left over prototype bits. The largest self propelled gun carrying vehical to ever see combat I believe was the Karl-Gerat.

http://en.wikipedia....Karl-Ger%C3%A4t

[SquareSphere]

I personally would think that anything over 100 tons would be so slow making it fodder for artillery and aerial bombardment.

[Nerts]

I'm pretty sure it's just down to the fact that you get a hell of a lot more bang for your buck if you had made a lance of heavy mechs rather than a 100+ ton money pit.