Pilot skill or probabilistic hit locations?
#1
Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:53 PM
How does a casual gamer compete? Or should it even matter? After all, in the TT game hit locations are random. So to be the most true to the original, the pilot should have little or no control over hit location. In TT, more armor was naturally located in the places with the highest probability of being hit. So there was a natural balance between armor allotments and the probability of damage. The skill is in tactics, movign less than your enemy, finding good cover, having good intelligence, etc... not in how well you roll the dice.
IMHO, allowing precision aiming is one reason why the arm/leg/head shot tactics occur... and 'boat'ing. When you can fire 8 weapons and have them all hit the precise same point on the target, the amount of armor become much less significant (let alone the damage model).
I would prefer a model more like Half-life, Borderlands or other probabilistic hit systems. Depending on the type of weapon, speed of your mech, heat status, etc, the "reticle" get bigger. Your shot lands somewhere inside the circle. Fire 6 ERLLAS, and they hit 6 random locations within the circle. This gives a light mech a fighting chance, because it won't be killed instantly by the first trigger pull from a heavier 'mech.
#2
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:09 PM
The only true focus based weapons (multi weapons focusing to a single point) would have to be Arm based which means they are articulated and thus require the electronics and Gyro's to also be on-board (with the added weight and space requirements accounted for) to allow for said focusing effects.
Running sideways at 70kph, across rough terrain, while burning a hole through the center torso of another moving Mech at 200+ meters should be all but impossible, despite the best gyro set up in the Inner Sphere.
#3
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:13 PM
Edited by Dsi1, 02 November 2011 - 06:14 PM.
#4
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:14 PM
Then again, depending on how the game is developed - I could live with Target Designation - make it feel a bit more like the board game.
Edited by The1WithTheGun, 02 November 2011 - 06:14 PM.
#5
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:15 PM
#6
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:18 PM
#8
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:21 PM
HOWEVER.
I think that there should definitely be a lot of skill/timing in firing a steady shot. I.E being hit by weapons skews your targeting reticle, firing your weapons skews your reticle, running makes your reticle jump up and down according to 'Mech movement.
If I have the patience to wait until my reticle lines up with the centre torso before firing each shot, I should be rewarded. Also helps to prevent the "circles of death" we all know and love. If I chain fire my weapons 1 at a time, both my 'Mech and my target 'Mech will have a tough time drawing an accurate bead since the target reticles of both 'Mechs will be jumping around. Maybe not enough to miss, but enough that I don't get a core shot every time unless I can wait for my openings.
Having this plus recharge times on weapons should minimize if not eradicate "coring". Combine that with (what I assume the devs will do since even the MS devs did) splash damage of non-direct fire weapons (missiles etc) and we should see fights that last longer than 10 seconds.
But like I said before, if I can get past the movement of my 'Mech and the motion of being hit, I should be rewarded for my patience.
#9
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:24 PM
#10
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:26 PM
infinite xÆr0, on 02 November 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:
Yeah but then everyone will load up on lasers and PPCs and that's it. The Ostroc and Ostol will be two of the most popular heavies in the game!
It will be interesting to see how the devs deal with this issue.
Edited by The1WithTheGun, 02 November 2011 - 06:30 PM.
#11
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:29 PM
The1WithTheGun, on 02 November 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:
That's why you don't make ballistic weapons luck based, you make them ballistic based. Have the shell go where the barrel points and have it be affected by gravity and wind, there you go, suddenly skill not luck.
Same goes for lasers and PPCs minus the gravity and wind effect.
#12
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:31 PM
I think the primary problem ends up being with the near instant hit style laser weapons in both beam and pulse variations leaving little chance for missing and shot deviation. This can be a problematic issue in a game where resources are finite leading towards player choice bias down the road. Heat accumulation is the traditional counter balance, but that just leads to players overloading heat sinks. Instead of simply only relying upon total mech heat build up, another mechanic along similar lines could be used. Heat on the weapon specifically. Granted, issues like this were traditionally handled through ROF limitations, however in order to have it be more of a pilot based system giving the pilot the choice to go hot and override is a core game element that has always been there. Also, in going weapon based, it will place more limitations on over use of one or two primary weapons and force rotations or self limitations for better protracted use. It would also largely eliminate continuous fire patterns leading into the alpha strike switch for finishing wounded targets quickly. Also, it would give more reason to use weapons like a flamer, to heat up a primary weapon system instead of just general danger to ammo or core explosions as seen in previous games.
It would also be neat to see the melee options in game (carried weapons, DFA, kick/punch w/e, as i love me some hatchet man action), but I'll understand if it is not implemented.
Also, with the ECM style items could easily be elements to help conceal rather than just disrupt or disperse shot grouping too. There are tons of options here for that route if it is taken.
Edited by Phades, 02 November 2011 - 06:32 PM.
#13
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:32 PM
The1WithTheGun, on 02 November 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:
this is a purely speculative assumption. Based on what the devs have been saying, not all maps will be "energy weapon friendly", and besides, urban maps will force players to get up close and personal, which won't really give pin point accurate lasers that much of an advantage.
#14
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:37 PM
Dsi1, on 02 November 2011 - 06:29 PM, said:
Same goes for lasers and PPCs minus the gravity and wind effect.
well, shooting AC's at range in real life has a "luck" element to it, especially if you're reaching to hit targets beyond your maximum effective range, especially moving targets. I'm not advocating for serious deviation of AC's at effective ranges in the game, but beyond those, it should be trickier to put rounds on target consistently.
#15
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:42 PM
infinite xÆr0, on 02 November 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:
well, shooting AC's at range in real life has a "luck" element to it, especially if you're reaching to hit targets beyond your maximum effective range, especially moving targets. I'm not advocating for serious deviation of AC's at effective ranges in the game, but beyond those, it should be trickier to put rounds on target consistently.
It's only luck if you will yourself to ignore the physical elements at play
There is something to be said for it being lucky that he kept going straight instead of turning, but it is much less luck than your shell going to the top left of your 2 inch reticule and missing instead of going to the top middle of your 2 inch reticule and blowing a mech's head off. (Cough cough, WoT)
Edited by Dsi1, 02 November 2011 - 06:45 PM.
#16
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:46 PM
#17
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:51 PM
CrescentHawk, on 02 November 2011 - 06:46 PM, said:
This except remove the luck element, your weaponry are mounted in different areas so the munition they fire originate from different areas, hopefully your arm isn't still behind that building when you fire that AC20!
The board game was based on probability because you couldn't actually hop in a mech and take the shot yourself. Great for a tactical/strategic perspective. Bad for an FPS perspective.
#18
Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:55 PM
I also agree that the movement of your 'mech, as well as movement from your own recoil and being hit by physical weapons, should reduce your accuracy.
#19
Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:22 PM
Dsi1, on 02 November 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:
There is something to be said for it being lucky that he kept going straight instead of turning, but it is much less luck than your shell going to the top left of your 2 inch reticule and missing instead of going to the top middle of your 2 inch reticule and blowing a mech's head off. (Cough cough, WoT)
oh, so physical elements like imperfect barrel harmonics, or disproportionately expanding gasses coming out of the end of the barrel? Those things would throw off shot accuracy at RANGE, and their effects not likely to be very predictable, hence the element of probability or luck in the shot. Granted, this sort of shot deviation should only really occur at, and most certainly past your weapon's maximum effective range, and it should not be drastic, because, well, it's not that drastic in real life... Basically, this could be the difference between say, aiming and shooting for the CT at 1000m, but hitting the left or right torso, or an arm maybe, but certainly not missing..
#20
Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:28 PM
I think some variation on this system strikes the best balance between rewarding a steady hand and a nod towards realism and/or blind luck.
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