56 replies to this topic

[FinnMcKool]

Insidious Johnson, on 08 April 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

"Hey! You! Get offa my Clan!" - Mick Jagger

the who

[Connor Macleod]

In regards to the "No Teamwork in Online Play", yes there is. In MMOs such as *shudder* WoW, RIFT, DCUO, etc. The whole teamwork thing has yet to grace the FPS genre, which is why I tend to stay away from them. The Marine Corps has ruined my liking of games such as Call of Duty because of the Lone Wolf style of play. In fact the last time I played CoD, some ***** civilian friend of mine looked at me while we were playing and said, "This is what you guys do in real life in the Corps, right?" I didn't know whether to be annoyed or laugh. I did both actually, and said, "No, dude, first of all, in our tactics we use TEAMWORK and watch each other's six at all times, not run and gun for the highest kill count, leaving our squadmate's out to dry. Rambo's a hollywood myth." I can't count how many times my teammates in CoD ran right past me to take out an enemy unawares only for me to get shot in the back not even two seconds later because said teammate was not watching my six. Anyways I do digress (seems to be one of my many talents)

I've been a big fan of MechWarrior since I played MW2 on my Playstation when I was around 9 or 10. I want to play the crap out of this game till long after my wife has filed for divorce because I neglect her. I love the lore, and yes, I used to love everything Clan. But then I grew up and learned about the Classic Battletech, reading Mercenary Star for the first time, before the Clans even existed, and I loved it. When I heard the Devs somehow incorporating Role Warfare when I learned about the existence of this game, I nearly crapped myself with glee. "You mean I get to play one of my favorite games AND have to rely on teamwork in order to win?" Just that made me want to jump in my Enforcer (My favorite Mech followed closely by the Thanatos, Commando, Vindicator, and Clint.) and never leave, because with all the roles being relevant I'd never have to. Again, I digress with my long winded tangent.

I just want the Clans to be balanced, so we do have a chance to win against them, but at the same time taking a nerf bat to their technology just seems to go against everything Battletech. And as was stated before, certain Clans such as the Smoke Jaguars and Nova Cats did cling religiously to Zellbrigen even when the Inner Sphere "cheated". I just think the devs could capitalize on this, and I'm glad they semi-confirmed that they were looking into it. It would be very interesting to see a n00b Clanner "kill steal" and break Zellbrigen and all of a sudden they show up as an enemy to their friends and get stomped by both I.S. and Clan alike. I also like the idea of using BV and cost, that is an outstanding idea, but rewarding players with Clan just because they're worse than everyone else? Yeah, no.

[The Cheese]

Lord Trogus, on 08 April 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

He is under the assumption the devs presented on day 1, and that was stressing the importance of teamwork. Every good team will work together.

The Devs can stress it all they want, and I would applaud them for it. That doesn't mean it'll happen. You're right though. A good team will work together.

I've played a lot of Starcraft, team games specifically. For every one game where you see a side play as a team, you see 20 more where it's every man for himself. This is even when you get people at the start who try to coordinate things and put plans in motion. I saw the same thing when I played Enemy Territory, before that in C&C, etc ad nauseum.

I do hope that the role warfare thing does the trick.

[Insidious Johnson]

Role warfare to reign in the clans? K. They have support mechs, yes, but how are they used with zellbrigen? Aren't there technically only two roles to play in a clan? Those being Lead or follow, only. "Okay stravags, form up on me, then each of you go attack your own targets. Be sure its all about honor since teamwork is for freebirths"... um.. really? This begs the question as to why with batchalls clans even have scout mechs? Interesting. I don't see it being played that way though. Most players are all about the win, regardless of the orthodoxy of the method.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

OR

ya' know... they can just tone down the blatantly OP Clan Tech. Why do we have to preserve the TT stats, when a LOT of things don't translate well into a competitive real time game, anyway? I bet you that MOST (yes, most) players who get their hands on clan 'tech won't give a rats @$$ about any of these artificial limitations implemented in the game that doesn't blatantly take away their OP Clan Tech. They will find loop holes and in the end PGI will only inadvertently end up punishing Clanners who truly follow Zellbrigen and allow the rest of the players abusing Clan Tech to continue not caring and running amok.

I suggest going the much simpler route and toning down the superiority of the Clan Tech. Let it go. You're feelings alone are not a good reason to retain something that is borderline broken.

[Calvin Vakarian]

hell just go the MW4 method where the clan weapons might have some advantages in range and damage but produce a lot more heat/are heavier than their IS counterparts. Hell, I don't really care much about the weapons anywhere near as much as I care about being able to pilot the clan chassis. I want my Timber Wolf damn it!

Edited by Calvin Vakarian, 08 April 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[BLACKFIRE]

Everything you are all saying put aside, this game will more then likely work like World of Tanks. Russian tanks like the IS4 are beast, but... They are almost always dropped into tier 9 or 10 battles. When grouped they are always in Tier 10. Clan tech will be like the russians... While IS would more more the Germans. It will mix and match but in the end the system will build two teams with close to equal damage capabilities and yell go. For the other rounds like team Battles Im sure it will let you rely on yourselfs for see what the other team is fielding mechwise and you will need to build off that, also much like WoTs. Im only saying this because the game model looks the same to me. I like world of tanks and I love killing tanks with my Tiger... But I almost always end up dead when in a team fight because our 3 tigers will land in a Tier 8 or 9 fight with something much worse.. King tigers are crap because of price VS damge AMMO cost alone kills you. And if you dont pay prem to keep going damage losses per match stack up quick. Things like this is what will happen with Clan Tech. You will Pay out of pocket to stay in the tech or fight like crazy in lower level fights for just as much fun, if not more. As I said my Tiger 1 is my favorite tank to rock because of when it lands me when Im alone. Im guessing the history of MW/Battletech will change somethings but over all Im expecting a World of Mechwarrior which Im personally fine with. I spend all of WoTs saying someone should make a World of mechwarrior. This is all just my thoughts and hate it if you want its a realistic fate.

Edited by BLACKFIRE, 08 April 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Definitely another reason to consider some form of Battle-Value system. If the IS can field an Awesome for the price of a Clan medium 'mech, we'll have a pretty even situation.

[Trogusaur]

The Cheese, on 08 April 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

The Devs can stress it all they want, and I would applaud them for it. That doesn't mean it'll happen. You're right though. A good team will work together.

I've played a lot of Starcraft, team games specifically. For every one game where you see a side play as a team, you see 20 more where it's every man for himself. This is even when you get people at the start who try to coordinate things and put plans in motion. I saw the same thing when I played Enemy Territory, before that in C&C, etc ad nauseum.

I do hope that the role warfare thing does the trick.

The difference is that the Battletech community is notorious for organized combat (in the absence of "broken mechanics", such as alpha boating [*cough poptarting]). I still frequent the MW4 rooms from time to time, and it is not uncommon to run across an entire Clan picking apart another team with organized tactics. At times, it seems the FFA players are the minority.

[3Xtr3m3]

Vollstrecker, on 08 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Give them significant bonus honor for destroying their target proportionate to relative weight classes (so a Dire Wolf doesn't get much for slaughtering scout designs).

Orzorn, on 08 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

As you stated, you'd get bonuses for destroying more "honorable" targets. A Dire Wolf picking on a Jenner isn't going to get very much honor.

I find it humorous to think of a Dire Wolf chasing down a Jenner.

"I challenge you!"
"No thanks"
"C'mere, you!"

"I don't want to."
"Stand and fight me!"
"No"
lol

[Paul Inouye]

Crumpling this thread up and throwing it down to clan talk.

[Archtus]

I like the idea of balancing BV/12ISvs10C. Clan tech is over powered. That's all there is to it. I like that, it keeps flavor. Sure, many, especially new guys, will jump to clan for the power boost, but then be forced to a slightly lopsided match to account. It's the flavor I like, and wrapping clan tech in foam padding just doesn't feel right to me.

[CCC Dober]

OP: It's 3 in the morning and there you have your answer. Definitely needs more sleep

On topic: I agree with you that the Clan warriors are usually portrayed as selfish, which may have altered the general perception to such a degree that people take it for granted. The constant pressure to prove yourself individually in order to qualify for a blood name or not be classified as solahma does not exactly lend itself to form lasting bonds. Also, the rules of zell are rules of honor if you like, not a general case. Either they are offered or not. The way the Clans treat bandits, pirates and the dark caste should be a clear indicator, but this is not outwardly communicated because these fights are deemed unworthy and there is no honor to gain or anything to brag about. In a duel every Clan warrior is on its own, that much is true. But once zell is broken (the rules are complicated enough to almost guarantee this) you can expect the Clanners to work as a unit and focus fire like the best of them.

That being said, the technology advantage is deadly enough in a duel situation, scaled up to a full binary (10 Mechs) it becomes downright intimidating. The Clan advantage is game breaking and deserves to be solved in a rather permanent fashion.

[Trevnor]

Connor Macleod, on 08 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

In regards to the "No Teamwork in Online Play", yes there is. In MMOs such as *shudder* WoW, RIFT, DCUO, etc. The whole teamwork thing has yet to grace the FPS genre, which is why I tend to stay away from them. The Marine Corps has ruined my liking of games such as Call of Duty because of the Lone Wolf style of play. In fact the last time I played CoD, some ***** civilian friend of mine looked at me while we were playing and said, "This is what you guys do in real life in the Corps, right?" I didn't know whether to be annoyed or laugh. I did both actually, and said, "No, dude, first of all, in our tactics we use TEAMWORK and watch each other's six at all times, not run and gun for the highest kill count, leaving our squadmate's out to dry. Rambo's a hollywood myth." I can't count how many times my teammates in CoD ran right past me to take out an enemy unawares only for me to get shot in the back not even two seconds later because said teammate was not watching my six. Anyways I do digress (seems to be one of my many talents)

Just a little off topic, but you should check out Battlefield 3. If you lone wolf it on a Conquest map, or your team doesn't work well together, then that team is going to lose. It's all about tactics, and team work. And all the vehicles to blow stuff up!

[kaziem]

I think the best way to balance the clans vs the inner sphere, when it comes down to it, is leave clantech as really advanced, but use something close to the battlevalue system to make sure there's actually roughly even firepower on both sides. Clanners will have fewer stronger mechs, IS will have more but weaker mechs. The thing is, if we make numbers of mechs the way to balance it out, several years from now when lostech and stolen/reverse engineered clantech gets into the innersphere market, the number balancing won't work out.

Just assign the various components/pilot skills/weapons a balanced BV, and make sure the two sides on the conflict have decently close value.

[Claw55]

Please make the Clanners and their mechs just as terrifying as they are in canon. They need to be a challenge that only organised IS units with superior tactics and teamwork can hope to defeat, with no mercy given to a unit that does not know its strengths and weaknesses. But make so that when the Clans do loose, they loose BAD. The more battles they loose, the faster the IS gets ahold of their tech, and they loose the advantage of superior machinery. This will make the war tense for both sides as time passes.

Edited by Claw55, 22 April 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[Alaskan Viking]

They will HAVE TO balance the clan tech (like they did in pretty much every previous Mechwarrior game) if they want to make it a 12vs12 multi player game, so all you clan people are kind of wasting your time asking for "uber l33t weaponz!11".