57 replies to this topic

[Felbombling]

Hey gang, seeing as MW:O is a sim and the player base have different takes on what a sim would mean for Battletech, I think it would be interesting to see how we differ in what we expect to see when we pull the trigger [click the mouse, etc] Do all our weapons converge on the location indicated by the pipper? Do they stray a little and hit someone where we didn't expect them to? Do all our missiles hit, or do some fly by the target, even though our targeting system told us we had a target lock?

I ask this because of someone I ran into one day, many years ago. I was young, perhaps 15 or 16 years old, standing outside a model and hobby shop. I was looking at model kits in the window before the store opened and a gentleman was outside, as well. There were some different American fighter planes on display, and the man asked me, "Which one is your favourite?" I pointed at the A-10 Thunderbolt model kit and said, "This one... I know it is slow, but I like ground attack aircraft more than fighter planes." He thought that was interesting and pointed at an F4 Phantom. He then said, "I flew one of these in Vietnam." I thought that was pretty interesting, and we had a nice conversation before the store opened. Afterwards, one thing he said stuck in my mind. He was talking about how the movie Top Gun was all garbage, and that it took a lot longer than one or two seconds to get a missile lock, like in the movie. He said it was much longer, and it took some really good flying to get a missile kill, let alone a gun kill. Thus this poll and the questions within. Maybe the way we have it in our minds, after playing video games and/or watching movies, is different from what other people think. I know that, after playing TT and reading the novels, I have a certain understanding of how the targeting and weapon hit chances go, but I also played Mechwarrior quite a bit, so I have that in my noggin, too.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 09 April 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[The Cheese]

The only question which I can answer with your canned responses is the first one. (1 to 6 hit)

The lasers should depend on whether they are mounted on the torso or arms. Arm weapons should converge, torso weapons should go straight forward from your mech with no convergence.

The missile path deviation should depend on what kind of missile you're firing. Longer range, less deviation.

Edit: Just to clarify, by "deviation", I mean the maximum angle that a missile can adjust it's course. A streak SRM, for example, can turn on a dime, but an LRM has a turning circle like a supertanker.

Edited by The Cheese, 09 April 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[Monky]

Assuming you're talking about a SSRM 6 for # 1, would like to see medium lasers function closer to table top (not exact precision, but capable of hitting the target's body in most cases when aimed at them, to help counter boating but still make them useful), and LRM's are supposed to be guided and fairly speedy... 90 meters seems reasonable but unless they're jammed they should go until max range, which afaik is the max lock range anyways, I am fine with this particularly since it keeps one catapult in the back from dominating if he has a single spotter... They shouldn't perform 'arial stunts' like in MW4 however, looping back behind you.

[BerryChunks]

SRMS are more agile than LRMS, while LRMS should be faster. So SRMS should hit on average 3 for any targets of any speed and LRMS should be good at hitting slow movers and mediocre to poor at hitting fast movers. I picked 2,2, and 1.

[Joe Davion 86]

you're also forgetting that LRMs are not like the radar and IR guided missles we have today. they are more like semi guided missiles, with you having to keep the reticule/pipper over the target for maximum effect, and im not talking 100% hit rate but the longer you maintain lock the better the guidance is.

[Motionless]

I would expect SRMs to hit fairly reliably assuming the launcher is facing the target due to the fast travel and short distance. Doesn't mean they'll all hit though.

I'm not sure if I understand what I mean by all the options in the 3rd question, I'd say that if you fire LRMs at something 200m away and traveling away from you they will travel up to their maximum range chasing them, but if the mech were to accelerate in a perpendicular direction the missile's turning radius might cause them to impact some other object destroying them.

[Felbombling]

Modified post to reflect SRM standard pack in question #1 and LRM missiles for question #3. Sorry everyone!

[Calvin Vakarian]

At least for #1 I think that if I've loaded an SRM6 onto my mech then unless the system is jammed, damaged or has malfunctioned in some other way then it should fire all six missiles.

[Jake Valeck]

the devs have covered this in previous blogs. do people read any of them before posting?

[BerryChunks]

Joe Davion 86, on 09 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

you're also forgetting that LRMs are not like the radar and IR guided missles we have today. they are more like semi guided missiles, with you having to keep the reticule/pipper over the target for maximum effect, and im not talking 100% hit rate but the longer you maintain lock the better the guidance is.

so Wire or laser guided, then.

Jake Valeck, on 09 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

the devs have covered this in previous blogs. do people read any of them before posting?

Are you saying people cant voice their opinion on how they want it to be instead of how it is?

Edited by BerryChunks, 09 April 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[William Petersen]

The idea of a 'lock' for non-streaks is foreign to me, I voted as close to accordingly as I could (*** does "run forest run" mean and how does it differ from "like a rabid dog"?).

[Joeseph Pierce]

well, i think that the LRMs should follow till out of range (not just LOS, but going all around, basically, running out of fuel) and the SRMs should partially hit with a lock, and the Mediums should somewhat loosely hit. but that isn't what i'm mainly posting about. in your story, the guy had flown F-4 Phantoms in Vietnam. Well, the First F4s had NO gun, because the designers thought that missles would completely replace guns. they were wrong, and they added the gun as a last resort, because the missles (AIM-7 Sparrow and the AIM-9 Sidewinder) were pretty unreliable. the Sparrow would miss most of the time, and it was hard to get in range to use the short range sidewinders (think of the Sparrows as LRMs and the sidewinders as SRMs.) Now still it does take a while to get a missle lock (ie not 2 seconds) but it is shorter than it took in Vietnam.

[Pale Rider 010]

SRM's ought to be fast enough that they can still hit a moving target and are useful against most mechs that are faster than a crippled Atlas, but they don't need to be pinpoint accurate as long as their accuracy is balanced with firepower.

Similarly, LRM's should have enough accuracy that they are not just a waste of time and space, but not inevitable death from above. It was mentioned earlier that the longer you hold the reticule over your target, the more accurate they are. I like that, and I completely support that idea. If I can keep my reticule on you until those missiles reach you, then you ought to be in some trouble.

And then there's the lasers. It has been mentioned by the Dev's that there will be individual reticules that denote weapon convergence, particularly for the arms. If I don't give them time to wholly converge on the target, then it's understandable that they might not hit where I want. If I ensure I have good track, however, I want them to hit precisely where I'm pointing. Sort of the difference between quickly firing from the hip, and lining up your shot.

Edit: Clarity

Edited by Pale Rider 010, 09 April 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[Oswin Aurelius]

I believe that light 'mechs NEED to be able to outrun tracking weapons. That's the point of having a high speed, lightly
armored 'mech. If I'm running in a Jenner, and I get unlucky enough for a Catapult to get a lock on me with its LRMs, I don't want to be completely screwed. I want to PROBABLY be screwed, but have the chance to use my fancy piloting skills to avoid the attack.

As far as SRMs go, if I (the Jenner) am already moving at maximum speed past a 'mech that fires some SRMs at me, I expect to be able to dodge at least some of them, if not all if the enemy pilot didn't try to lead my 'mech before firing.

It shouldn't be easy to hit a fast 'mech with ANY weapon, that's the whole purpose of being that fast. What's the point of piloting a 20-35 ton 'mech that can book it at 100+/kph if the only thing that does for me is make my wreckage skid a little farther when I get nailed by every damn thing that shoots at me. Speed is meant to be a lightly-armored 'mechs defense (unless it was designed without a good engine too, then you're just an *****).

Make us able to have piloting skill actually count for something for once, PGI!

Edited by Oswin Aurelius, 09 April 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[Joe Davion 86]

Oswin Aurelius, on 09 April 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I want to PROBABLY be screwed, but have the chance to use my fancy piloting skills to avoid the attack.

JJ's FTW

[Oswin Aurelius]

Please tell me I'm not the only one that remember how retarded missiles acted in Mechwarrior 4 when they were "supposed" to hit by the game mechanics, but missed? Missiles shouldn't be able to come back around for another pass, that's just silly.

[Insidious Johnson]

Never investigated 'lore' on this but in previous MW PC based sims, srms were unguided while the streak versions were. I don't expect enemy ams to work vs srms with radar on, nor vs streaks with radar off. Anyone expect something different that is most currently used to MW4 gameplay? I do expect my missles to go where I aim if deadfired or unguided. As for laser convergeance? I'd expect it to be better than ballistic based but that is about it.

[Felbombling]

Calvin Vakarian, on 09 April 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

At least for #1 I think that if I've loaded an SRM6 onto my mech then unless the system is jammed, damaged or has malfunctioned in some other way then it should fire all six missiles.

Yeah, all six fire all the time, I'm wondering about the number of missiles in the flight that hit. If all six hit all the time, then it makes the Streak SRM a waste of the bonus tonnage, in my mind. Based on what we saw from the game play video, it looked like all missiles from the Atlas just streak out really quick and all of them hit... or at least that is how it looked to me.

Jake Valeck, on 09 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

the devs have covered this in previous blogs. do people read any of them before posting?

Yeppers, but as I stated in my answer above, they might have said what happens for missiles that miss, but I don't remember them saying anything about the way missiles would behave on the way to the target. We've seen the Atlas in the video fire LRM flights in an arc, and we've seen SRM flights streak out on a flat angle. I was interested in what the player base thought, based on what they have seen of the game play video vs. what they had in their mind about how it should work, based on their understanding and expectaions. Did you read my original post?

William Petersen, on 09 April 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

The idea of a 'lock' for non-streaks is foreign to me, I voted as close to accordingly as I could (*** does "run forest run" mean and how does it differ from "like a rabid dog"?).

LRM missiles chasing you forever in a straight path as opposed to them being able to perform some crazy stuff in the air and track a target all over hill and valley and beyond.

[Fetladral]

Joe Davion 86, on 09 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

you're also forgetting that LRMs are not like the radar and IR guided missles we have today. they are more like semi guided missiles, with you having to keep the reticule/pipper over the target for maximum effect, and im not talking 100% hit rate but the longer you maintain lock the better the guidance is.

Most missles fired from aircraft today still need target lock but they are phasing them out slowly for true fire and forget. The main reason isn't the lack of the tech but that the ones requiring a lock for maximum effect are cheaper than putting a whole radar on a missle. The Sparrow missle is semi-guided. The AIM 120 which is replacing the Sparrow (AIM 7) has active guidance. First Active Guidance missle was the AIM 54 Pheonix range a little over 100 miles. Which the F-14's carried up to 6 so in Top Gun they couldv'e taken out those MIGs long before they got into dog fighting range.

[Eximar]

Fetladral, on 09 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

First Active Guidance missle was the AIM 54 Pheonix range a little over 100 miles. Which the F-14's carried up to 6 so in Top Gun they couldv'e taken out those MIGs long before they got into dog fighting range.

Except that the Phoenix was an anti-bomber missile, and had a pretty low pK against a seriously maneuvering target at range, its fuel long since having run out, and attacking on inertia.