112 replies to this topic

[NeonKnight]

WOW always a lot that happens when I sleep after work (Work the Graveyard so I've been quietly hibernating the past few hours)

Am I the only one who does NOT have an issue with the implementation of double heat sinks? Are people REALLY getting that bent out of shape over them being rated 1.4 instead of 2.0? Sure you can all pull out your rule book and decree BUT THE RULES SAY DOUBLE SO THATS TIMES TWO!!, and I could then pull out those same rules and say but wait! According to the rules all, and I MEAN ALL weapons can only shoot once per 10 seconds. And heat sinks dissipate heat ONCE per 10 seconds. But that is the TABLE TOP RULES, here, with a REAL TIME conversion of those TT rules we have to trust PGI (and really folks PGI is the Montreal based Partner of Piranha Games, IGP is the publisher, says so right at the bottom of the page:

)

So, I for one will be happy to have Double heat sinks that give BETTER heat dissipation than SINGLES even if it mathematically is not double,

[WardenWolf]

What about when the way they want to implement DHS is worse that it is today (which they already admitted was broken) - and in fact worse that single heatsinks? Check out this thread to see why I'm upset (and many others with me):

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1337340

[Choombatta]

Agreed.
I also find it telling, that most players that bring up TT rules and values, are also the same people that argue about reality when it comes to Gauss Rifle with a minimum range of 90m..............like TT rules.

[wanderer]

NeonKnight, on 02 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

So, I for one will be happy to have Double heat sinks that give BETTER heat dissipation than SINGLES even if it mathematically is not double,

Except for bigger 'Mechs, they don't anymore.

It takes 20 DHS at 1.4 to match what I got with 28 SHS.

My Atlas doesn't have the room to fit that many DHS in the build, meaning I have to scrap it. Was nice having my 61kph 350-standard Atlas while it lasted, back to something along the lines of my 300XL version.

[csebal]

WardenWolf, on 02 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

What about when the way they want to implement DHS is worse that it is today (which they already admitted was broken) - and in fact worse that single heatsinks? Check out this thread to see why I'm upset (and many others with me):

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1337340

Right now they are worse than single as the heatsinks in the engine will not be upgraded. If they fix that, then upgrading to double will net you a 40% HS increase overall.

Yes if you run many doubles right now, then those will be worth less, as even with the broken engine heatsinks, the ones that did count as double added up after a while. Does that break them? Hardly. beam setups are awfully imbalanced without heat issues.

Those PPCs and Large lasers are not meant to be fired non stop, and you really are not supposed to fit 9 med lasers on mechs and constantly alpha with them.

[3rdworld]

csebal, on 02 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Right now they are worse than single as the heatsinks in the engine will not be upgraded. If they fix that, then upgrading to double will net you a 40% HS increase overall.

Yes if you run many doubles right now, then those will be worth less, as even with the broken engine heatsinks, the ones that did count as double added up after a while. Does that break them? Hardly. beam setups are awfully imbalanced without heat issues.

Those PPCs and Large lasers are not meant to be fired non stop, and you really are not supposed to fit 9 med lasers on mechs and constantly alpha with them.

No currently DHS on your chassis a twice as good a singles. Thus mechs mounting more than 7 DHS are getting nerfed. Both in dissipation and capacity.

But that isn't the real issue. Why take doubles for 1.5mil when I can get nearly identical results with singles+ES (assuming you are mounting more than just a couple DHS) and save a Million C-Bills? DHS are supposed to be an upgrade, after this they are a side grade.

[Deedsie]

Quote

DHS are supposed to be an upgrade, after this they are a side grade.

A highly expensive side grade at that, unless you're in a light mech, then it's an upgrade.


But I don't pilot lights.

[Elder Thorn]

i have no problem with it, but i don't get it sometimes.

I had a Jenner with 4 Small Lasers and 2 Streaks. Upgraded to Double Heat sinks, i thinki had an Heat Effeciency of arround 1.72 or something. Had no problems at all.

Now i switched the 4 Small Lasers to 2 Mediums and 1 TAG, the Effiency Bar says 1.84, but in battle i am running A LOT hotter than before - is something not working or what is it now?

[Kyle Hawkins]

NeonKnight, on 02 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

... and I could then pull out those same rules and say but wait! According to the rules all, and I MEAN ALL weapons can only shoot once per 10 seconds.

Just to be a pedantic *** here... I'll point out that the rules don't say that at all. That should be "All weapons can only make one "Attack" per 10 seconds". An "attack" being an abstraction of the weapons correct use. For a machine gun that's potentially anywhere between 60 and several hundred "shots". Certain AC20 models fire more than a shell per second, whilst others barely fire even two shots per 10 seconds.

Since the very TT rules themselves are full of abstractions (like virtually every TT game ever designed) the MWO rules/stats can only ever be an interpretation.


On the DHS issue itself, I believe the solution is in fixing the Balistic weapons to actually be competitive, and then letting DHS be 2.0 again. If DHS were implemented as 2.0 given the current state of the weapon balance, ballistic weapons (spare gauss) would become abandoned entirely. Which you honestly wouldn't notice much in game given how few use them anyway, but that's the wrong way to go.

So agree with 1.4 in short term, but that cannot be accepted as the standard for things to come, since gimping a core system like heat management purely to prop up the other already sub par weapons, will only cause endless headaches and problems in future updates and expansion.

[NeonKnight]

csebal, on 02 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Right now they are worse than single as the heatsinks in the engine will not be upgraded. If they fix that, then upgrading to double will net you a 40% HS increase overall.

Yes if you run many doubles right now, then those will be worth less, as even with the broken engine heatsinks, the ones that did count as double added up after a while. Does that break them? Hardly. beam setups are awfully imbalanced without heat issues.

Those PPCs and Large lasers are not meant to be fired non stop, and you really are not supposed to fit 9 med lasers on mechs and constantly alpha with them.

Yes, RIGHT NOW they are not working but the patch is slated to convert EHS (Engine Heat Sinks) into the new Double Heat Sinks, so the 10 in the engine will convert to 20.

[IceSerpent]

NeonKnight, on 02 November 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Yes, RIGHT NOW they are not working but the patch is slated to convert EHS (Engine Heat Sinks) into the new Double Heat Sinks, so the 10 in the engine will convert to 20.

Uhm...you really might want to read what exactly the proposed "fix" is before saying that it's fine by you...just a thought.

[Lootee]

They damn well better be lowering the heat on ERPPC, AC20, and ERLL to about 9, 5, and 6. Real DHS were the only possible way those weapons could even start to compete with the gauss rifle builds. Now we learn they will never be implemented properly and weapons will never be balanced.

Gauss rifle and LRM only online: bleah.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 02 November 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[New Day]

Nope, my data shows that in most cases they will at best, stay the same as now:
http://mwomercs.com/...ines-100245300/

Edited by NamesAreStupid, 02 November 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[Razorfish]

True Double Heat Sinks where my great hope of balancing other weapons against the Gauss Rifle. They would make energy builds viable against an opponent with 2 Gauss Rifles.

As it is now 1.4 only reinforces the fact that the Gauss Rifle is king.

The best way to increase your kill/death ratio is the Gauss Rifle.

It always come back to the Gauss Rifle.

It is just stupid.

[Tickdoff Tank]

NeonKnight, on 02 November 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Yes, RIGHT NOW they are not working but the patch is slated to convert EHS (Engine Heat Sinks) into the new Double Heat Sinks, so the 10 in the engine will convert to 20.

This is the relavant post from the Devs:

Quote

Double Heat Sinks (DHS)

• Fixed a bug where DHS where Engine Heat Sinks were not be converted to DHS.
  
• Single Heat Sink = 1.0
  
• Double Heat Sink = 1.4

After fixing the EHS bug, and setting DHS to a canon value of 2.0, we experienced anticipated results. Heat was no longer a concern, increasing DPS exponentially on certain types of mech loadouts. After testing a variety of standard builds, we settled on 1.4. This value maintains the spirit of both DHS and maintains the integrity of MWO's overall gameplay experience.


PGI will monitor DHS' closely and tune this number up or down depending on the telemetry data received from production servers.

Heat Bug

Testing revealed a long standing issue with how heat was calculated for some weapons.

• Total Generated was used as Heat Per Second.
  
• The fix now calculates Heat Per Second based on Total Generated Heat.

This affects Small, Medium, Large Pulse Laser, and Small Lasers. They will now produce more heat when fired and work as originally intended.


Fixes for both issues will be in the November 6th Patch

Which means that 10 Double sinks in the engine will be 14 dissipation instead of 20. And 20 DHS will be 28 dissipation, which is pretty anemic.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 02 November 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[Mr 144]

The only one's who'll benefit from DHS now are the ones that don't need it. I just don't understand. Large energy weapons are completely worthless RIGHT NOW. With 1.4HS, they (PGI) actually found a way to make them worse! MWO is now Gauss, Lights, and LRM on-line. I'm fine with all those weapons BTW, but 1.4HS completely removes any competion towards there dominant (non-flavor) use. Increasing Heat on Lasers, is just the final nail in the coffin.

Anyone who likes this change, simply doesn't understand math, runs gauss, boats LRMs, or pilots light mechs exclusively. Even my HBK only gains ONE (1) heat dissipation for the investment.

Mr 144

[stjobe]

Tickdoff Tank, on 02 November 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

This is the relavant post from the Devs:

Which means that 10 Double sinks in the engine will be 14 dissipation instead of 20. And 20 DHS will be 28 dissipation, which is pretty anemic.

Yeah, it's a bit anemic if compared to 40. But if it makes for a better, more interesting game perhaps it can be allowed?

Let's try it on the 6th before we gather our pitchforks and light our torches.

Edited by stjobe, 02 November 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[Fl3tcher]

Here's an interesting thought. Clan weaponry, every clan wannabe has been crowing just how powerful the clan mechs will be once they hit the game. With DHS carrying less heat than they do during the 10 second long TT turns wouldn't that mean that the higher heat clan weapons won't be able to fire as often as the lower heat IS versions?

More powerful but slower firing vs Less powerful but faster firing?

My God. . could PGI have just balanced clan tech with the inner sphere?

This requires more investigation!

[Krivvan]

WardenWolf, on 02 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

What about when the way they want to implement DHS is worse that it is today (which they already admitted was broken) - and in fact worse that single heatsinks? Check out this thread to see why I'm upset (and many others with me):

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1337340

It's not worse than single heatsinks. They're worse than single heatsinks in specific situations. Which is exactly the way it should be otherwise single heatsinks become pointless.

wanderer, on 02 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Except for bigger 'Mechs, they don't anymore.

It takes 20 DHS at 1.4 to match what I got with 28 SHS.

My Atlas doesn't have the room to fit that many DHS in the build, meaning I have to scrap it. Was nice having my 61kph 350-standard Atlas while it lasted, back to something along the lines of my 300XL version.

Good! Just the way it should be to be honest.

3rdworld, on 02 November 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

No currently DHS on your chassis a twice as good a singles. Thus mechs mounting more than 7 DHS are getting nerfed. Both in dissipation and capacity.

But that isn't the real issue. Why take doubles for 1.5mil when I can get nearly identical results with singles+ES (assuming you are mounting more than just a couple DHS) and save a Million C-Bills? DHS are supposed to be an upgrade, after this they are a side grade.

Yes, they should be a side grade otherwise single heatsinks become useless. Few mechs can even mount more than 7 double heat sinks.

[Mr 144]

stjobe, on 02 November 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Yeah, it's a bit anemic if compared to 40. But if it makes for a better, more interesting game perhaps it can be allowed?

Let's try it on the 6th before we gather our pitchforks and light our torches.

Yes, because the rules of mathematics should change by then, making 1.4HS all sunshine and lolipops

The only thing keeping the flaming torches from spewing a PPC level inferno, is we don't know how much heat has been RAISED yet on energy weapons..But, there is NO WAY this is a good thing...it can only get worse with testing the RAISED heat output of lasers.

Mr 144