32 replies to this topic

[New Day]

I did this for myself, and someone will probably come up with better ones, but if you want to take a look at how HS, old DHS and new DHS compare, take a look.
Y axis is heat efficiency, X axis is number of external heatsinks.
100 engine

245 engine

300 engine



As you can see compared to the current DHS, the new ones are in some cases better. According to my graphs light engines will have the worst of it, since the current DHS are better for them when they have at least 3 DHS.
For the other cases it's slightly better. For the 245 engines the intersection is at 6 DHS, meaning that if you have more than 6 DHS you will have worse efficiency than now.
For the 300 engines that point is at 8 DHS.
In conclusion, this patch will most benefit the assault mechs, while anything lighter will suffer, probably considerably since the heat generation for many of the lasers will be increased.

EDIT: Correction after studying the graphs some more I have come to the conclusion that this will benefit no one and will in best cases keep thing the same and in very rare ones will it actually increase HE.

Edited by NamesAreStupid, 02 November 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Lavrenti]

That confirms what I've seen in other threads, and the analysis - that it'll hurt the smaller mechs most - is deeply disturbing. My Hunchbacks run pretty hot, and I've been hoping DHS might offer a way out of that. But if laser heat generation is being increased as well, it's hard to see how this benefits the builds that need it most.

[Urza Mechwalker]

No it wil stil hurt the assautl ones most. Why? BEcause assault mechs do not have spare critiacls for more than 2-4 external sinks usually. On an atlas crits are the bottleneck not weight.

[Squigles]

Except that most lights are falling into the 250-300 engine rating size at the moment. And I can guarantee few people if any were running 6-8 additional heatsinks beyond their engine allotment on lights. This ends up being a buff to basically every light mech in the game. Alot of hunchbacks are going to get a nerf though, especially if they're still running the stock 200 engine, 14 or more DBL sinks on those mechs will be a nerf.

Edited by Squigles, 02 November 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[Clay Pigeon]

This change screws over awesomes. You puny lights have plenty of spare crits for endo, FF, AND DHS.

With assaults we get to choose 1, and it would usually be DHS because it's the least terrible option for a crit-limited mech. Or it was. Now they're all equally terrible choices for the awesome.

[New Day]

Urza Mechwalker, on 02 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

No it wil stil hurt the assautl ones most. Why? BEcause assault mechs do not have spare critiacls for more than 2-4 external sinks usually. On an atlas crits are the bottleneck not weight.

It will hurt everyone or do nothing. Eh, depends on the build, for example a 300ST, 4PPC Atlas with DHS (can achieve better efficiency than with single HS) will stay exactly the same.

Squigles, on 02 November 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Except that most lights are falling into the 250-300 engine rating size at the moment. And I can guarantee few people if any were running 6-8 additional heatsinks beyond their engine allotment. This ends up being a buff to basically every light mech in the game. Alot of hunchbacks are going to get a nerf though, especially if they're still running the stock 200 engine, 14 or more DBL sinks on those mechs will be a nerf.

That's interesting since only the Jenner can mount a 300 (and Cicada can mount a 320 but it's a med), Raven is max 245, Commando 215. Honestly I don't know why mount a 300 engine on a Jenner. 100kph is perfectly fine.
If anything this will either keep things exactly the same or lower the HE. Only in rare cases will you actually see an increase in HE, much less to any important degree.

Edited by NamesAreStupid, 02 November 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Vermaxx]

Squigles, on 02 November 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Except that most lights are falling into the 250-300 engine rating size at the moment. And I can guarantee few people if any were running 6-8 additional heatsinks beyond their engine allotment on lights. This ends up being a buff to basically every light mech in the game. Alot of hunchbacks are going to get a nerf though, especially if they're still running the stock 200 engine, 14 or more DBL sinks on those mechs will be a nerf.

I can only get 10 DHS into a Hunch 4SP, I dunno how you got more. And that is with using the default weapons load, not raising anything to larger versions.

[Tickdoff Tank]

NamesAreStupid, on 02 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

It will hurt everyone or do nothing. Eh, depends on the build, for example a 300ST, 4PPC Atlas with DHS (can achieve better efficiency than with single HS) will stay exactly the same.


That's interesting since only the Jenner can mount a 300 (and Cicada can mount a 320 but it's a med), Raven is max 245, Commando 215. Honestly I don't know why mount a 300 engine on a Jenner. 100kph is perfectly fine.
If anything this will either keep things exactly the same or lower the HE. Only in rare cases will you actually see an increase in HE, much less to any important degree.

If your Jenner is only going 100kph then it is easy meat. Jenners need that speed to be around 120kph+.

Vermaxx, on 02 November 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I can only get 10 DHS into a Hunch 4SP, I dunno how you got more. And that is with using the default weapons load, not raising anything to larger versions.

I think he means that he has 10+4? Meaning 4 extra DHS. But I may be misunderstanding him as well.

[New Day]

Tickdoff Tank, on 02 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

If your Jenner is only going 100kph then it is easy meat. Jenners need that speed to be around 120kph+.



I think he means that he has 10+4? Meaning 4 extra DHS. But I may be misunderstanding him as well.

I know that during my light piloting days many patches before (about 3) I did pretty good in a Jenner and later a Raven with an 245 XL.

Edited by NamesAreStupid, 02 November 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[Ken Fury]

Here is table showing the current Heat Dissipation with the broken system (light green) and the new Heat Dissipation with various possible End Stats for DHS (1.4 to 2.0), the values most similar to the current broken values is 1.6/1.7 with a buff to the lower Total Heat Sinks.

[Krivvan]

Lavrenti, on 02 November 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

That confirms what I've seen in other threads, and the analysis - that it'll hurt the smaller mechs most - is deeply disturbing. My Hunchbacks run pretty hot, and I've been hoping DHS might offer a way out of that. But if laser heat generation is being increased as well, it's hard to see how this benefits the builds that need it most.

People in the other threads are saying that the change will only benefit light mechs.

But yeah, seriously, more of the people complaining should see this. It doesn't make a huge difference until a certain number of heat sinks that most mechs won't carry.

Also this means that the proposed new DHS are far from being 'useless'.

Edited by Krivvan, 02 November 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[8Ball-]

Agree for the lights. The way I see the math is that if I now have 14 SHS in my Jenner and switch out to doubles keeping 14 total DHS then I will have the equivalent to 19.6 SHS. Nice buff to my way of thinking. 14x1.4=19.6 right?

[Khobai]

It hurts assault mechs the most by far. Especially the atlas because its weapon hardpoints are in the same locations the double heat sinks need to go in.

[Zenehre]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

People in the other threads are saying that the change will only benefit light mechs.

But yeah, seriously, more of the people complaining should see this. It doesn't make a huge difference until a certain number of heat sinks that most mechs won't carry.

Also this means that the proposed new DHS are far from being 'useless'.

So you are saying that because the new DHS numbers have a range in which they are similar in effectiveness to the current broken ones, and that they are only less effective than our broken ones above a certain point, that this is somehow acceptable? Do you understand why we find this to be a bad thing? So yes, you can use them in the same gimpy way you use the broken ones now. Some mechs can actually see a benefit from them over SHS but its not the upgrade we all expected that they would/should be. You pay out the bum for them, they increase your repair bills, and they take up 3x the crit space. They have enough disadvantages that the 2x heat dissipation seems justified.

So no, they are not 'useless' but they aren't very 'useful' either.

If they insist on having it be this difficult to cope with the drastically higher heat generation this game has over every other battletech/mechwarrior, they should significantly lower the heat on large energy weapons if they want to see them used comparably to ballistics/missiles. 2x DHS would have been a band-aid allowing large energy weapons to see the light of day more often that the "little to none" we see now. At the cost of letting lights becoming heat neutral? Not like they have large heat problems now anyways. Fair trade if you ask me.

[Krivvan]

Zenehre, on 02 November 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

If they insist on having it be this difficult to cope with the drastically higher heat generation this game has over every other battletech/mechwarrior

Does this game actually have drastically higher heat generation? I'll be honest, I find heat to be less of a worry now. Maybe because this is the first mechwarrior where I've actually paid attention to heat but still.

[Zenehre]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Does this game actually have drastically higher heat generation? I'll be honest, I find heat to be less of a worry now. Maybe because this is the first mechwarrior where I've actually paid attention to heat but still.

http://www.mektek.ne...4/download.html (i know people don't like mw4 but its the only one i can give you a link to a legitimate free release of. If you have access to the others through friends or whatever give them a try too). Build a mech with 2x PPCs or anything along those lines and test it out, being sure to ignore the coolant pods.

There's a reason nobody uses PPCs or ER anything in MWO. Which saddens me, PPCs have always been my favorite weapons I just can't seem to find a way to get enough dissipation under the current system to make them effective.

Edited by Zenehre, 02 November 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Does this game actually have drastically higher heat generation? I'll be honest, I find heat to be less of a worry now. Maybe because this is the first mechwarrior where I've actually paid attention to heat but still.

Yes.
You can go watch footage from MW3 on youtube, and all other games, too. The heat falls off slower, there's no band-aided 'flush coolant,' and everything seems to generate much more heat, for some reason.

[Psikez]

Vassago Rain, on 02 November 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Yes.
You can go watch footage from MW3 on youtube, and all other games, too. The heat falls off slower, there's no band-aided 'flush coolant,' and everything seems to generate much more heat, for some reason.

MEMORIES

[Hexenhammer]

Lavrenti, on 02 November 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

That confirms what I've seen in other threads, and the analysis - that it'll hurt the smaller mechs most - is deeply disturbing. My Hunchbacks run pretty hot, and I've been hoping DHS might offer a way out of that. But if laser heat generation is being increased as well, it's hard to see how this benefits the builds that need it most.

And couple this with making lasers more expensive to repair to help balance ammo costs one has to wonder what PGI is doing.

[Steel Claws]

Since few mechs can actually load more than 6 or so doubles with any kind of loadout - it should benefit everyone. As far as buffing lights, perhaps it will some. But this will be true of ANY mech that can only load a few HS. Lets face it, you will rarely see any lights with more than 2 or 3 HS.