60 replies to this topic

[TerebNeerg]

Reason 1

With the proposed 1.4x multiplier, after November 6, any current build over 16 DHS will have less heat dissipation than it does currently.

(Nov 6) vs (Current)
17: (23.8) vs (24)
16: (22.4) vs (22)

Realistically, you mount 6-10 criticals worth of weapons, depending on the mech. That leaves 20 or 21 as the maximum realistic number of DHS you can cram in. That of course leaves no room for endo-steel, ferro-fibrous armor, or an XL engine.

Since that is the maximum reasonable number of HS and PGI likes the balance of the current system...

I propose a multiplier of at least 1.5 so the top-end for DHS heat dissipation stays at least where it is now.

Old: 10 + 11 * 2 = 32
New: 21 * 1.5 = 31.5

Reason 2

Effectively, this change is making DHS even better for lighter mechs relative to heavier mechs. Even if a light had an effective 30 heatsinks (10 engine + 5 extra), they won't be able to mount enough heavy weapons to make use of all that heat capacity simply due to chassis weight & hardpoint restrictions.

In the middle, you have heavy & medium mechs which can make the most use of this. They have a fair amount of tonnage available and a good selection of hardpoint to mount a few heavier weapons.

The change favors light mechs that mount 16 or fewer DHS over medium/heavy 'mechs and will increase the already amazing popularity of light builds.

Reason 3

Many (most?) assault builds gain little or no benefit from running DHS with such a lower multiplier. If assault 'mechs can't dissipate more heat, they can't put out more damage than a lighter 'mech.

On the other end of the spectrum, heavy 'mechs can run out of criticals long before they run out of tonnage and have the hardpoints to choose whatever weapons they want to use those sinks. There isn't a whole lot of point in them using 3 criticals on a DHS just to save weight. In fact my favorite Atlas builds have 30+ single heatsinks. With a 1.4 multiplier, there is no way to get above ~30 heat dissipation with double heatsinks and still mount assault-class weaponry. (Assaults can only get that high with DHS because of the added heatsink slots on engines over 275)

Edited by TerebNeerg, 02 November 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

90% of the mechs in the source material WILL NOT WORK AT ALL with PGI poordubs running at anything below 2.

They simply will not work. Clan mechs are going to cook themselves in seconds, and the later IS mechs will do even worse.

[TerebNeerg]

Although having a Daishi/Dire Wolf function correctly would be nice, I'm not overly concerned with making canon table top builds work. I am concerned with balance and with keeping heavier 'mechs viable.

Edited by TerebNeerg, 02 November 2012 - 11:18 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

TerebNeerg, on 02 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Although having a Daishi/Dire Wolf function correctly would be nice, I'm not overly concerned with making canon table top builds work. I am concerned with balance and with keeping heavier 'mechs viable.

But they are forcing canon mechs on us, and they are porting the whole tech system, and the system with its heat costs assumes you'll be using dubs for the level 2, and not trying to crowbar large pulse lasers onto a medium with single sinks.

[TerebNeerg]

Yes, if you are using trial 'mechs you have a heat problem from firing approximately 3 times every 10 seconds. That problem would only get worse if they put in level 2 tech trial 'mechs. On top of the tripled heat generation, you'd only have 70% of the normal heat dissipation... ouch.

[Josef Nader]

There is never any reason ever for Assault mechs to pack DHS, and we already struggle to keep up with lights on the damage scale. It's positively silly. I run with light friends and we compete for damage numbers. Not because I'm a worse pilot, or he's significantly better than me, but because he can reach the fight faster and put out nearly as much DPS as my Atlas can due to the high-heat of my weapons (2 MPLas, 1 AC20, 2 SRM6). If I'm not extremely prudent about my shots, I go into shutdown, whereas he can lean on his 6 small lasers with impunity, running off every couple seconds to dissapate extra heat before diving back into it. It's seriously a kick to the crotchplate for assault pilots.

[Particle Man]

how can you be discussing balance when they're not even in the game yet?


what's with all the pre-crying around here lately?

[Khobai]

Quote

There is never any reason ever for Assault mechs to pack DHS, and we already struggle to keep up with lights on the damage scale.

Yep. An assault mech gets 8 weapon hardpoints and some extra armor which isnt nearly as good as not being hit in the first place.

A light gets 6 weapon hardpoints, moves at over twice the speed, gets a massive lagshield, and has the extra crits to benefit from both endo and ff.

Assaults are so far behind lights right now. DHS were supposed to level the playing field for assaults by letting them use the bigger high-heat weapons. Theres absolutely no way x1.4 DHS are going to do that.

Quote

how can you be discussing balance when they're not even in the game yet?

Because it only requires fourth-grade math to figure out that the planned DHS are worse than SHS for assault mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 02 November 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[Particle Man]

Khobai, on 02 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Because it only requires fourth-grade math to figure out that the planned DHS are worse than SHS for assault mechs.

Math and actual battlefield experience dont always add up

I know this, I've used math before, so i';m an expert on the subject

[Vassago Rain]

Particle Man, on 02 November 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Math and actual battlefield experience dont always add up

I know this, I've used math before, so i';m an expert on the subject

1+1 is 2. It's not 1.4.

You don't need to know math to realize this, just like you don't need battlefield experience to shoot an AK47 at a barn. Both concepts are designed in such a way the most simple of humans can grasp them without thinking.

[TerebNeerg]

Wow man, chill out.

[Hardplace]

You do not want my Cicada with 6 med lasers to have better heat efficiency then it does now, it is already crazy stupid powerful for 40 tons...

[Vassago Rain]

Hardplace, on 03 November 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

You do not want my Cicada with 6 med lasers to have better heat efficiency then it does now, it is already crazy stupid powerful for 40 tons...

Why? It's not like I don't get stronger if you get stronger.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why? It's not like I don't get stronger if you get stronger.

Because laser builds will get stronger than non-laser builds. The last thing we want is everyone in laser boats.

[Vassago Rain]

Khobai, on 03 November 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Because laser builds will get stronger than non-laser builds. The last thing we want is everyone in laser boats.

So it's better that we maintain the current status of all gauss and streaks, all the time, and maybe LRMs?

[Urza Mechwalker]

Particle Man, on 02 November 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

how can you be discussing balance when they're not even in the game yet?


what's with all the pre-crying around here lately?

How we can? How about using our brains , specially the high cognitife fucntions that let us abstract problems and use complex cocnepts as math for example to predict the outcome of a situation whoose parameters are clearly defined? You know the same feature that differentiate us from cattle.

Just to be clear.. I amsure you an also do it.. just try a bit. SOme people say it hurts their heads.. but it opens up a lot of possibilities to PREVENT things from happening, instead of paying up the price of waiting to see what happens.

Edited by Urza Mechwalker, 03 November 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Urza Mechwalker, on 03 November 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

How we can? How about using our brains , specially the high cognitife fucntions that let us abstract problems and use complex cocnepts as math for example to predict the outcome of a situation whoose parameters are clearly defined? You know the same feature that differentiate us from cattle.

I think they call fanboys sheep for a reason.

[SirLANsalot]

Khobai, on 03 November 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Because laser builds will get stronger than non-laser builds. The last thing we want is everyone in laser boats.

Actually about a good 90% of all mechs in the entire BT universe use lasers as there main weapon, and even ones that don't use them for defensive purposes. This means lasers NEED to be useable just as much as ballistic, and even right now ballistic isn't working as well as it should (AC 20 heat is WAY too high for that heavy of a gun).

Laser builds will be powerfull but so too will ballistic builds. The AC2 for its piddly damage generates a lot of heat when chained together with other AC2's. Making DHS acutally do what is name says would go a long way to not only fixing beam based weapons (like PPC's) but also ballistic based builds as well (making them heat neautral as they should be).

So its a win-win here for everyone, even the red headed step child, missiles.

[Digital Ninja]

TerebNeerg, on 02 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

The change favors light mechs that mount 16 or fewer DHS over medium/heavy 'mechs and will increase the already amazing popularity of light builds.

As someone who drives mostly light mechs with less than 16 DHS, I approve of this change.

TerebNeerg, on 02 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Many (most?) assault builds gain little or no benefit from running DHS with such a lower multiplier. If assault 'mechs can't dissipate more heat, they can't put out more damage than a lighter 'mech.

An assault mech's weapons weigh more than my entire mech. If he can't manage to out damage me then the issue isn't heat sinks, it's the assault pilot's severe brain damage.

[Vapor Trail]

If small and medium lasers are the problem, perhaps increasing their cycle times would help... No reason to have them fire quicker than the large versions.

I know it's a bit counter intuitive... but the large versions of lasers are supposed to be able to put out more damage per second than the small versions.