48 replies to this topic

[Stymir]

I'm sure most of you have read all of the forms posting about how premade OP, and how it’s too hard to be a pug in the game because you get stomped by "premades". Im not about to make the argument that you need to "learn2play" because that’s a shallow argument. but on the flip side this is not call of duty you’re not some all-knowing all destroying master of destruction that can heal oneself from the most grievous of wounds in combat, you need team work. Yes I am part of a merc corp but I do drop with pugs and in a few games with pugs the pugs and I have stomped the other team just as bad as if I was in a premade, you want to know why because we coordinated we worked to gather. In call of duty you might as well be a one man army who doesn’t really care about the other people on your team is all about how many kills you can , and if you were to go look at my KD it’s pretty bad but then look at my win loss it’s not too shabby. This is because I know my position on the battle field I don’t go rouge and try to run off. Each person in a permade works together, each person knows his place for the most part.
Still not convinced take a second, and look at the fiction of MW how often do you read about one lone mech pilot running around? Wait for it I didn’t think so. Yes, yes I know that there are hero’s but they have a group that drops with them. I know a pilot that did 1200 damage and killed six on the other team but still lost. I will post the Screen shot in a bit. Oh by the way it was a pug match.
If you want to win then you need to join a group not necessarily a merc corp or a house or, even clans for that matter but you need to join something. So that you can work together and wait for it….win. Team work is the very thing that makes each mech viable an atlas is too slow and a light can get behind you and wreak you, a light lacks armor and firepower to brawl, like the atlas. Heavy’s and mediums are a tradeoff of armor and firepower for speed. Every mech has its place, yes the flea and the spider too unfortunately.

[Glitched Naga]

I have to say, this does bring in a good point. Although this topic has been addressed in time and time again, the way you presented makes sense.

TBH to all the people who keep complaining about premades, just keep in mind the game isn't about you.

[Felbombling]

Stymir, your post was well thought out, but the stark reality exists that even if a PuG stuck together like glue, a premade team can still pick them apart, regardless of how coordinated the PuG became during the match. I have faced off against teams consisting of two Jenners and six Mechs packed with LRMs. During those matches the Mechs on my team were systematically targeted and annihilated... sometimes within seconds… by concentrated LRM fire. I don't care how coordinated a PuG group becomes, it is essentially impossible to break that group, especially if they split up their LRM assets around the board, so that they can support each other in the event of a breakout. Then throw in the fact that the PuG team might have multiple Trial Mechs, facing tweaked out machines that also have the benefits that pilot experience points grant them, and you have a very lopsided playing field.

Would every match be like this? No, but enough of them will be as such until the matchmaker is adjusted to discourage new players and put premade players to sleep through boredom. In a perfect world every player would load up MW: O and instantly download some voice software and THEN find a group to play with before hitting the launch button, but that is now how the game is set up right now.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 04 November 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Roughneck45]

StaggerCheck, on 04 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Stymir, your post was well thought out, but the stark reality exists that even if a PuG stuck together like glue, a premade team can still pick them apart, regardless of how coordinated the PuG became during the match. I have faced off against teams consisting of two Jenners and six Mechs packed with LRMs. During those matches the Mechs on my team were systematically targeted and annihilated... sometimes within seconds… by concentrated LRM fire. I don't care how coordinated a PuG group becomes, it is essentially impossible to break that group, especially if they split up their LRM assets around the board, so that they can support each other in the event of a breakout. Then throw in the fact that the PuG team might have multiple Trial Mechs, facing tweaked out machines that also have the benefits that pilot experience points grant them, and you have a very lopsided playing field.

Would every match be like this? No, but enough of them will be as such until the matchmaker is adjusted to discourage new players and put premade players to sleep through boredom.

But this is not a problem.

Coordinated teams should beat uncoordianted ones 100% of the time.

They just need to have solo que and group que imo. If you drop solo, then everyone in your game has done the same. For the group drops, prioritize similiary sized groups to fight against eachother as often as possible.

As long as people have the options, and they are willingly group dropping knowing they will fight a premade, there should be no more QQ.

Edited by Roughneck45, 04 November 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Glitched Naga]

Again, the whole point of this discussion is about communication, not the fact each individual pilot has a tricked out machine. And yes, that would be ideal StaggerCheck. To point out that regular "pugs" do not even attempt to communicate on a regular basis. Out of the several games that I've played since closed beta, I rarely see people coordinating. The situation that you presented was the ideal case for an all trial group versus a worse case scenario for them. On average, you see a mix of mechs in each game, therefore allowing them to have some chance if they were to coordinate. Think about it, 3 out of the 4 current trials have LRM's and a balance of other supplementary weapons to go with them. If played right, they could win if they actually coordinated with each other. The mindset of the average pug is to benefit himself/herself, and not looking at the overall goal of winning as a team. They believe that they achieve that if they got the most kills, then they would win. With that being said, they go alone, then get torn to shreds. And one by one do they get picked off. It is that mind set that people complain which results in the running joke: "teamwork is overpowered." This game was never meant to have the mind set of Call of Duty in terms of being a one man army. There are people who are good, but can be taken down by groups of people.

Case and point.

[Valaska]

NagaGunner, on 04 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I have to say, this does bring in a good point. Although this topic has been addressed in time and time again, the way you presented makes sense.

TBH to all the people who keep complaining about premades, just keep in mind the game isn't about you.

Actually, not to sound a little narcissistic, this game is indeed revolved around its players as individuals. PGI wants their money, and they need new players to stay more than us founders who already spent our bucks, so they have to do everything in their power to get them.

[Stymir]

thanks for everyone's contribution to this discussion.
staggercheck you're correct, that would be the ideal situation for everyone logs and instantly go to teamspeak something very similar to that. That's the whole point of this thread. Is to give a rebuttal to all the thread that are complaining about how premade consistently stomp any Pugs and that there is no way for a group of pugs to win. and this is more or less true. I was hoping to get people thinking about joining a clan, a mercenary Corporation or house. Or just a local group for that matter. You make the argument that premade groups are tweaked out, this is because they have a higher win ratio in this make more money per drop. This is like to original point of coordination since they coordinate thry're able to win.
the thing to think about for pugs that want to go solo is what happens when the implement and metagame. How will Savage work. How contracts work. If pugs think there behind now, how will they get their hands on clan tech when it gets released. Just form some group of some kind, even if it's just a team that has no other connections than to do drops together.

If you want to play it very seriously you could look at it like an army, yes the military is made up of individuals but each individual is part of a bigger team,just like a cog in the machine. The machine would work without its individual parts.

Edited by Stymir, 04 November 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[Glitched Naga]

Valaska, on 04 November 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Actually, not to sound a little narcissistic, this game is indeed revolved around its players as individuals. PGI wants their money, and they need new players to stay more than us founders who already spent our bucks, so they have to do everything in their power to get them.

But this has nothing to do with founders. The founders program was a way to help kick-start the game in terms of getting all the production hardware running, and paying the employees. The money that we paid them went back to us and the people who are now starting to get into the game. Let me break it down. Do you know how much each server they have up and running, the server system room, security software, electricity to keep them up 24/7, technicians, and the list goes on. That money does not exactly go into someone's pocket until everything else is payed for.

[Kread]

Servers tech's, lol, have you actually played this game? I mean really, if its had $50,000 spent on it I would be amazed, and I have 25 years of game dev/ beta testing experience.

[Stymir]

Kread, on 04 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Servers tech's, lol, have you actually played this game? I mean really, if its had $50,000 spent on it I would be amazed, and I have 25 years of game dev/ beta testing experience.

your right that $50,000 probably did not go into the development of the game, but what about the people that created the game. paying their salaries and the rights to some of the mech's. and buying the rights from Microsoft. and there are probably more small costs and small details here and there that we can't even think of that they've had to pay.

Edited by Stymir, 04 November 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[Glitched Naga]

Kread, on 04 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Servers tech's, lol, have you actually played this game? I mean really, if its had $50,000 spent on it I would be amazed, and I have 25 years of game dev/ beta testing experience.

I have played the game, and obviously you have not contributed to the development of this game. Then let me ask you this, what about paying the people for their salaries and the people who have to live on a day to day basis that work there. Unless you can pull an economic breakdown how money is spent at PGI on everything to support your argument, then your argument is invalid.

[rgreat]

Kread, on 04 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Servers tech's, lol, have you actually played this game? I mean really, if its had $50,000 spent on it I would be amazed, and I have 25 years of game dev/ beta testing experience.

You mean game only have like 2—3 physical servers?
Cause that what you get for 50k$. Not to count maintance.

[StrategosTalon]

NagaGunner, on 04 November 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

I have played the game, and obviously you have not contributed to the development of this game. Then let me ask you this, what about paying the people for their salaries and the people who have to live on a day to day basis that work there. Unless you can pull an economic breakdown how money is spent at PGI on everything to support your argument, then your argument is invalid.

Actually, Kread's "arguement" is not an arguement at all but merely a condescending slap in the face to the developers and those that support the francise. If you have nothing coordinated to say keep worthless flames off the forums. It's counterproducive and rude.

[RAM]

Tactics > Teamwork > Technique > Tonnage


RAM
ELH

[Stymir]

you make a good point, was trying to say most of those very hard for pugs to move into the higher orders beyond tonnage even to technique. What you say is true that that tactics is better than teamwork which is better than technique in turn is better than tonnage is very true but for the most part need to be in some kind of group to be able to use to the top ones it is possible to do this in a all pug drop just much more difficult in the probability of actually working successfully is much lower outside of the group

[Balsover]

NagaGunner, on 04 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I have to say, this does bring in a good point. Although this topic has been addressed in time and time again, the way you presented makes sense.

TBH to all the people who keep complaining about premades, just keep in mind the game isn't about you.

Do you realize how empty this game would be if only the premades were playing?

[Stymir]

the game would be very empty, the point I'm trying to make is that if pugs are going to complain about being stomped then they should take the initiative and join a group. if you've ever done a premade versus premade drop it's a lot more fun for both sides. It's a lot more competitive and just in general leads to bet a better game.if it was all about individuals then why doesn't even give us the option to drop as groups.

Edited by Stymir, 04 November 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Balsover, on 04 November 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Do you realize how empty this game would be if only the premades were playing?

I wonder, considering all the threads out there insisting that 80% of all PUG matches are played against premades and other such nonsense.

[BoomDog]

As a new player, I think what bothers me the most right now, is the 'stare down your nose'...'you're all a bunch of COD players' attitude of many of the veteran players.

I've always just pugged in every game I've ever played. I like it for several reasons. Mostly because I can jump in and leave without feeling like I'm obligated to stay (I'm a dad with kids). I'm an introvert. I don't want to chat. I like the random chaos.

However, that doesn't mean that every pugger goes charging into the middle of the enemy. Believe it or not, most of us try to stay together. You say "Join a team", but I say, "We puggers already are a team".

All we ask for is a level playing field. As the game stands, it's not even close. You got players who haven't even figured out how to pilot a trial mech yet, fighting veteran players with tricked out mechs and maxed out skills.

I've had amazing, fun matches, but it was always when the teams were balanced.

What amazes me is the number of vets crying a river about not getting to 8 man pugstomp anymore. They act like they want competitive play, but the truth is, they want easy kills.

If pre-mades want to challenge themselves, have them all load up in trial mechs and go to battle. Maybe it would remind them what it's like trying to learn this game.

[IceSerpent]

RAM, on 04 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Coconut Monkey > Tactics > Teamwork > Technique > Tonnage

Fixed it for ya