17 replies to this topic

[geck0 icaza]

I would like to make a small gameplay suggestion on the SSRM's. Personally
I think their current Damage and accuracy are fine. They are obviously a
great counter to light mechs. But I find they are too effective at large
mechs in large numbers.

I feel the only reason this is the case is because of their screen shake.
Many other weapons have this feature but aren't that big of an issue
because they require the ability to aim accurately to also be able to
deliver consistent accurate damage. This in turn leaves them vulnerable to
being counter shot themselves.

The SSRM's have no such requirement, and with the advent of BAP it makes it
easier to lock on and maintain lock. Once lock is achieved the pilot only
needs to hold the cursor roughly over the target and chain fire their
SSRM's.

In conclusion, I believe either removing the cockpit shake from the SSRM's
or requiring more missiles per hit to register a cockpit shake would go a
long way to retaining the SSRM's effectiveness while curving the ease in
which a player can stun lock another pilot out of the fight.

Thanks for reading

Edited by geck0 icaza, 23 November 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[sycocys]

I thought about this alot - especially in the case of balancing streak cats and the best solution I've come up with is to make them jam-able like the uac5.

[geck0 icaza]

Unfortunately that isn't cannon or practical for the weapon type.

The issue really is that the way the game is setup currently is that there isn't really any substantial counter play to it. Sure the assault can out DPS you but, you have the speed and likely jump jets to make his fire more ineffective than yours on top of the knock around. This is true for meds and heavies as well but they lack the punch the assaults have to graze the person with significant damage, not to mention the lack of armor.

Ultimately (lets be honest, we are talking about streak cats) they are not engaging to fight. There is no "he's doing this, so I have to do this" like there is with other mechs. LRM support has "use cover so I can deny him the damage, or close within 180, or break LOS to deny lock", or light mechs "let me back up to a wall so he can't core me" etc. There are a number of options to fight different setups which is what makes fighting them engaging.The SSRM's boat is just "hes got lock, the best I can do is run, or hope he's already heavily damaged. If not now im done". Here's an interesting video on the counter play theory if anyone's interested.

It would be easy to say the counter to anything can be "use teamwork". But in a situation like this what happens when the Streakcat team is using team work as well? Just assuming both sides coordinate equally it still leaves an inherent imbalance because it assures an uneven fight from the start. Not only does this create imbalance but it takes away from the fun.

I am more than happy when I find someone who can actually 1v1 me and beat me, or even get out maneuvered in a team fight. It was earned, and I feel grateful for the experience. But when going into a fight with little to no options on how to win it leaves a person feeling robbed. Both of the accomplishment of at least putting up a fight but also of their enjoyment of the game.

[AC]

sycocys, on 23 November 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

I thought about this alot - especially in the case of balancing streak cats and the best solution I've come up with is to make them jam-able like the uac5.

naw, increasing the reload time of the SRM's would solve a lot. Right now streak cats can pump out more damage that anything around it. And it is 100% always hit, skill free damage. reducing that overall damage potential is the only way to balance them.

[focuspark]

The problem is hear is the assumption that it's OK to have a weapon that always hits, even when the missiles need to turn at impossible angles or occasionally travel through geometry to do so. PGI needs a better solution that what they have, but they need to keep streak's viable and different from standard SRMs. Not an easy job.

[DeadlyNerd]

Streaks aren't the problem, it's the hard point system that is allowing for these skill free builds. 2 SSRM2s are nice balanced addition to any mech that can support that but allowing for 6 is going over the top.

So instead of suggesting single weapons to be balanced, support the suggestions to system balances.

[AC]

I think that is part of the problem too. In previous MW games you had to have the recticle on the mech to get a lock. In MWO you have a HUGE box to float your recticle in. It does take NO skill to do this. That is half the problem.

Maybe they should reduce the size of the lock box. Or get rid of that method and go to another locking method that takes more skill.

[focuspark]

Honestly, if the lockon only started when you pressed the fire button, took 200ms to complete, and then the missiles fired no matter what... streaks would be balanced. it is the fact that you can lockon ahead of time that is the problem.

[geck0 icaza]

DeadlyNerd, on 23 November 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Streaks aren't the problem, it's the hard point system that is allowing for these skill free builds. 2 SSRM2s are nice balanced addition to any mech that can support that but allowing for 6 is going over the top.

So instead of suggesting single weapons to be balanced, support the suggestions to system balances.

Balancing a weapon type versus overhauling a part of the game. I am not entirely disagreeing with your assessment but lets be realistic as what can/will be done.

[sycocys]

It's practical to have every piece of artillery to have a chance for jamming.

Slowing down the reload would be another good thought though, and it wouldn't unbalance things so hard to make the weapon not viable for other builds.

[DeadlyNerd]

geck0 icaza, on 23 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Balancing a weapon type versus overhauling a part of the game. I am not entirely disagreeing with your assessment but lets be realistic as what can/will be done.

I know it's a giant step but chipping away from the surface isn't going to fix anything when the problem is in the core.

WoW for one, they've been balancing classes for the whole length of the game, not cause they added new stuff but cause they were always adding/reducing end values. The only big breakthroughs were when they changed a core part of the system like diminishing returns on CC skills.

[AC]

I have seen so many ppl support the new SSRM based on the fact that they are light mech killers. I sat and watched a streak cat for a few games. They do MORE damage to mediums and up than lights. I watch lights take partial damage from the streaks where heavier/slower mechs got obliterated in half the time.

We can't fix what is wrong with light mechs by allowing SSRM to be ownage for every other class.

[geck0 icaza]

sycocys, on 23 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

It's practical to have every piece of artillery to have a chance for jamming.

Slowing down the reload would be another good thought though, and it wouldn't unbalance things so hard to make the weapon not viable for other builds.

Its not artillery, its a small missile launcher. Longer recycle rate would only hurt mechs with a couple of these things.

When you have six, you can just adjust the stagger and have no real effect on its performance. With a 3.5 second cool down you can fire a shot every .58 seconds, if you increase the cool down to 4 seconds you can fire every .66 seconds. You only gained .08 seconds between shots.

Lets say we go extreme and bring it up to 5 seconds, you still get a shot off every .83 seconds. You only bought a .25 space between the shots from the current CD rate.

This is just a SSRM 2 we are talking about. What are the CD's going to be for 4's and 6's when they are released? 6, 7 seconds? No, I think another solution needs to happen.

The highest CD right now is 4.75 (LRM 20) for 34 damage and 1k range, for 10 tons and 5 crits. By comparison the SSRM 2 is 1.5 tons, 1 slot, 5 damage at 270 meter range and is arguably harder to over come in greater numbers in a single mech.

And the only real reason this is the case is because its the lightest weapon you can carry that can still knock your aim off. The lock on and the never miss isn't really the problem but rather how it can be used to nullify your counter options which is the root issue.

Removing a single SSRM launcher's ability to knock your aim off still allows you to do consistent damage but now you need to alter your tactics when boating them. Heck if you only need 2 launchers to knock off aim you'd have to fire them in pairs bringing your shot ratio to once every 1.16 seconds with current CD. Not only do you have new options on how to use it but also countering it as well.

Edited by geck0 icaza, 23 November 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Karl Marlow]

Do you guys REALLY want to know how to fix streaks?

In teh game Streaks were simply a safety feature that prevented fire if you didn't have a targeting solution. Therefore. in MWO If your reticle isn't over an enemy target teh weapons should refuse to fire and thus save ammo.

Tracking the target is the job of NARC and TAG.

[sycocys]

n. pl. ar·til·ler·ies

1. Large-caliber weapons, such as cannon, howitzers, and missile launchers.

Just sayin, by definition missiles are artillery. They are also a mechanical firearm that should have a chance at jamming. The mechanic is already built into the weapons portion of the engine and it would give a player an opportunity to have clear shots or gt fo Will it go a long way in balancing out a streak cat or other loaded up missle carrier? No, but it is a step in the right direction and it adds some depth to the simulation.

Edited by sycocys, 23 November 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Jabilac]

What about a mechanic to allow your Mech to adjust to the shake system when hit by more then 2 volleys. In essence the shake would be reduced by a set amount per volley until your system has compensated completely and you no longer shake when being hit. Basically the gyro's and computer system would compensate for the anticipated impact and adjust. It could also work for AC rounds.

[geck0 icaza]

ThomasMarik, on 23 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Do you guys REALLY want to know how to fix streaks?

In teh game Streaks were simply a safety feature that prevented fire if you didn't have a targeting solution. Therefore. in MWO If your reticle isn't over an enemy target teh weapons should refuse to fire and thus save ammo.

Tracking the target is the job of NARC and TAG.

Use streaks, holding it on target isn't hard to do when you don't need to be precise about the location. Sure if you move it off target for a little you lose lock, but gaining it again is not a hard action to perform, especially with BAP.

Jabilac, on 23 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

What about a mechanic to allow your Mech to adjust to the shake system when hit by more then 2 volleys. In essence the shake would be reduced by a set amount per volley until your system has compensated completely and you no longer shake when being hit. Basically the gyro's and computer system would compensate for the anticipated impact and adjust. It could also work for AC rounds.

Not a bad idea, but the simpler the idea the easier it is to pitch/implement. Plus I don't think knock around is bad, its just not suited for a weapon that functions like the SSRM's do.

On a side note: I noticed not one person so far disagrees with the fact that SSRM's need fixing. Usually you get more than a few players that play the specific setup being discussed chime in with "nuh uh its fine".

sycocys, on 23 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

n. pl. ar·til·ler·ies

1. Large-caliber weapons, such as cannon, howitzers, and missile launchers.

Just sayin, by definition missiles are artillery. They are also a mechanical firearm that should have a chance at jamming. The mechanic is already built into the weapons portion of the engine and it would give a player an opportunity to have clear shots or gt fo Will it go a long way in balancing out a streak cat or other loaded up missle carrier? No, but it is a step in the right direction and it adds some depth to the simulation.

Well ya got me their I was referring to more of the scale/slang use of the word.

[Ryken]

I think the problem is that SRMs dmg value is set to high. It should go from 2.5 per missle back to the original dmg value of 2.0 per missle. Its hard to notice the difference when light mechs are firing 1 or 2 at a time but that extra damage is noticable when you have 6 on a catapult. The catapult is the best way to exploit this value because for 13 tons (6 launchers and 4 tons of ammo) you can put out 30 damage every 3.5 seconds for only 12 heat. compare that to 6 medium lasers with 30 dmg every 4 seconds (duration + cooldown) and 24 heat. The negative is that you have to have 13 tons for the ssrm loadout compared to only 6 tons for the medium lasers but thats no problem at all for a 60 ton mech. Max out the armor and put the best XL engine in there to close the distance and you have a fast moving ssrm boat thats pretty tough with the current maps.

The original post also made a great point that the screen shake is way to much for only 5 damage. I also noticed this problem with the AC/2. Screen shake should be scaled to damage. Personally i would only like to see vision effects when you get shot in the head.