65 replies to this topic

[ASDFQWERG]

I want to know how this game is not 'pay2win' and if I'm taking certain things out of context. For instance, in interviews regarding the marketing strategy for the game, the developers say things along the lines of

"I'm not going to lie, some things can and will allow you to acquire items faster, or even instantly with real cash," but go on to say that buying better items does not necessarily bring an advantange.

The reason why I question the above is because it is a contradicting statement. Here is an example. Let's say I have a cup which I can use to fill it with water. Well, I go and buy another cup which is a little bit larger which lets me hold more water. Now, in the event there are no other attributes affected by the purpose of the object, the prime idea is that one is MORE than another. In otherwords, cup one is smaller than cup two. In which case, the better cup has the advantange of holding more water by being larger.

So how is it that buying something which is BETTER =/= having an advantage? The statement is a contradiction. Having two objects which are the same but one being better, even in the slighest bit, means using one object gives an advantage over using the other.

If this is the case and not a misunderstanding, then you are lying and trying to be a sneakysneaky developer.

Edited by ASDFQWERG, 03 May 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Insidious Johnson]

So you are worried that the guy who paid for a mohawk on his Atlas is also hiding a lava gun under it? They meant what they said. It is the cosmetic stuff that they were talking about.. ya know, that spiffy paint job so you don't look like the 32 other centurions standing next to ya. No way there will be an IWIN button for sale, ever.

[Cruiser]

What he is saying is that with real cash, you can acquire items faster than if you were grinding your way through the game,

Now the second statement is ambiguous. He does not define what "better" means, and so you cannot assume that better means something that will bring victory easier.

[Famous]

From everything we've seen and what they've said there is nothing in the game that can be purchased with real money that cannot be earned by playing enough.

The model appears to be you can give them real money to spend less time earning C-Bills to upgrade your chassis or buy new ones. In fact the Dev's have flat out said that everything in the game can be purchased with C-Bills and real money is simply converted into C-Bills

[ASDFQWERG]

Thats why I want clarification on the context. I don't care about vanity items. But the idea of 'better items' is totally vague and offers room for the last minute surprises. And the conversion is just fine too, thats how EVE works after all.

Edited by ASDFQWERG, 03 May 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Hyperius]

What they're saying is that buying items with cash does not automatically guarantee having a superior mech to players who don't pay with real money because everyone has access to all the items. Pay-2-win means that the people who pay get a guaranteed advantage through aquiring items that non-paying players cannot get.

[Dnarvel]

As stated, real cash will let you get the item faster. I think what the devs mean by "buying better items does not necessarily bring an advantage" is that just because you have a better item does not mean your skill at playing the game is somehow increased. To use your analogy, you bought the bigger cup with real money, but I waited and used game C-bills to make my cup the same size as yours, so we now have the same size cup, you just got yours faster. Now what if the idea of the cups was to fit through increasingly smaller holes in a wall, guess what? the Bigger, better, real cash cup can't go through as many walls as the smaller, free cup. Bigger and Better does not always equal an advantage, it all depends on the task at hand.

[Monky]

I think they mean 'better' as in 'better for your situation' not 'unacquirable/prohibitively difficult to acquire but with better stats'

Like how an ER PPC is 'better' than an ER Large laser your mech might have, if you can move around the equipment/tonnage/space to mount it and account for the extra heat.

That's what I hope at least. We all know many of the starter mechs are far from optimized, especially when you bring in different play styles.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Famous, on 03 May 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

From everything we've seen and what they've said there is nothing in the game that can be purchased with real money that cannot be earned by playing enough.

The model appears to be you can give them real money to spend less time earning C-Bills to upgrade your chassis or buy new ones. In fact the Dev's have flat out said that everything in the game can be purchased with C-Bills and real money is simply converted into C-Bills

This. Sure a ER Med. Laser is "better" than a Med. Laser, and buying it with RM means you don't have to grind C-bills. Pay to Win means the only way to get a ER Med. Laser is with RM, or you would have to play for 200 hours to get the cash to buy one.

[Motionless]

The way I remember one of the interviews is he used the idea of using money to 'keep up with your friends [who are spending more time on the game than you.]' That would mean both time and money are currency to obtain things. So there shouldn't be any 'golden bullets' or 'golden armor' that you can only get thru $$ that makes you more effective than those who don't pay, all other things being equal.

Edited by Motionless, 03 May 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

I think the buying better items means just what it means guys. Free to play means you dont have to pay for a monthly or yearly subscription. I play Star Trek Online and its the same way. EVERYONE can play for free... still have to buy the game but no subscription is requited. Now... with that said, in Star Trek Online there are silver and gold memberships for those that still want to have extra perks that you would not otherwise get for a FTP account. Examples in STO are extra character slots and or extra ship storage. Now there is also extra ship SKINS that you have to either buy with in game money or the option is there to buy with real money. You can also buy with real money things like... extra bank slots to hold more equipment and so on. I can see them doing a lot of the same for MWO. Free to Play seems to be the way most MMO games are leaning now as they will more than make their money in mini-transactions when I or others want that Mech skin or a new variant that may release and not be free right away.

[Mechteric]

Take a look at the Blacklight Retribution free to play FPS. It's like chopping out the multiplayer component of a game like Call of Duty Modern Warfare, and making it so people can choose to spend money to get that AK-47 at level 1 rather than having to work all the way up to level 60 to earn that gun.

Is that gun necessarily better than a gun you get at level 1? Yes.... but not in every conceivable way because your noobish MP5 can certainly kill that guy with the AK-47 just fine, the disadvantage you will have 1on1 in a head on fight will be present, but slighted against other possibilities, like you coming up against him when he's already damaged, or with his back turned to you, etc.


Now translate that to Mechs, and it's not so hard to see how it can work without becoming a game where only the people who pay win (statistically speaking).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 May 2012 - 03:43 PM.

[Koranthis]

The one thing that comes to my mind is also that they might allow you to buy things like weapons. If you want to put a PPC on your mech but don't actually have one then you can spend a few dollars and get a PPC. This does not make you special as it is the same PPC that anyone else can have just means you don't have to grind to get it. I don't feel that someone getting standard weapons is a game breaker. Now if you could buy a Clan ER PPC then that would be a problem.

[John Talbert]

buying a race car because you can does not make you a race car driver. I'll stick with earning my keep and likely being better for it. WOT has the same issue with premium tanks. it shows when someone buys one but lacks the ability

[autogyro]

You use money to convert to C-Bills. It lets people that don't have much time to play, keep up with friends that can spare more hours to playing.

That and cosmetic items or trinkets that don't affect gameplay.

[ovan20]

What they mean is that you can get xp e money with real money, intead of playing hours and hours for it.

What they mean with better itens is, you can grind 4 hours to get the money for that gun, or just pay with real money and get it, yes its a advantage, but you can get without spending a single cent.

[JP Josh]

Motionless, on 03 May 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

The way I remember one of the interviews is he used the idea of using money to 'keep up with your friends [who are spending more time on the game than you.]' That would mean both time and money are currency to obtain things. So there shouldn't be any 'golden bullets' or 'golden armor' that you can only get thru $$ that makes you more effective than those who don't pay, all other things being equal.

this god i hate WOT players that use gold ammo gold tanks i can handle they have their own weak spots you just need to find em but gold ammo thats only abianable through real world money...not fair

[Dhante]

When I was in World of Tanks Closed Beta they repeatedly said there will be no advantages that can only be bought with real money.

They Lied like Putin.

My gut feeling is that these Mechwarrior Online developers will NOT be dishonorable liars who have taken capitalism into a dark realm, similar to dealing crack, like those Ex-Soviet/Russia developers have.
(Taking advantage of dedicated WWII Tank lovers and possibly ruining a chance for a better WWII Tank game in the future, because whether it dies out for; a) it's con-game a.k.a. Torturous hurdles designed to make you pay, imbalanced pub play and silly arty mechanics or if stays successful for it's -if it shoots it's cool- player base. It will possibly deter a better game being made either way.)

I have faith that Mechwarrior Online will be done right the first time and that it will have many loyal and happy players.

(Sorry for my confusing Italic section... can't seem to write it better)

Edited by Dhante, 03 May 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[Mr Smiles]

This is not a game where being in the biggest 'Mech is the best. This is a team game. It's a game where a team with twelve 100-ton Atlases could get its *** handed to it by four Jenners.

Are you in a 20-ton Locust, dashing between rocks, peering over ridges, racing across open fields? You are the most important person on your team, because knowledge is victory.

Are you in a 65-ton Catapult, crouching behind mountains, your eyes away from your instruments, focusing solely on the information being fed to you by your recon lance? You are the most important person on your team, because indirect fire is victory.

Are you in a 100-ton Atlas, so brutish that you don't mind taking PPCs to the face while you approach the enemy line? You are the most important person on your team, because firepower is victory.

Are you in a 35-ton Jenner, keeping up with that Locust by dashing around obstacles, dancing over mountaintops and running up behind those Atlases? You are the most important person on your team, because skirmishing is victory.

* * * *

Their goal with the game is to make sure that no matter how much money you pour into the game, no matter how big your 'Mech is, the only factor in victory is how excellent a team-player you are and how expert you are with your 'Mech of choice. And, given that you can't buy pilot XP, how many matches you've played.

And given that these sort of 'Mech battles have many, many facets to them--as I described above--they will very likely succeed. Go ahead, load up in your 65-ton Catapult--I'll take a 35-ton Jenner and wait until you run out of missiles, and in a gun-on-gun match the fastest 'Mech (mine) wins. Oh, you went into a Daishi? Well, I'll take that teeny little LRM-10 you got there and destroy you with my 65-ton Catapult's endless missile barrage from behind a mountain. Or maybe you'll choose a Jenner and try to track me down. Good luck with that, I'm in a Raven, you can't even see me while I poke you with my one laser.

Unless you're a better player than me, or more expert in your 'Mech, or have simply been playing longer and are a higher level. Then, that rock-paper-scissors gets reversed. Your Catapult wipes out my Jenner within a couple tightly-aimed volleys before I can move a foot. You order a teammate to flank me, and creep that Daishi on top of my hill while I'm distracted. Or your Jenner spots my physical form--if not my radar signature--on the top of a hill, and you take a shot at my 'invisible' self and wreck me.

THAT is how their market model is going to work. It doesn't matter one iota what 'Mech you're in, if you're Elite, you WILL beat a Veteran.

...unless I'm in a Clan 'Mech of course. But I'm crossing my fingers that when Clan vs. Inner Sphere happens, they leave the Clan 'Mechs as overpowered as they were in the tabletop, but just make it 5 Clan vs 12 Inner Sphere (which, by the tabletop, usually balances out to even Battle Values)

[Orzorn]

The item/mech that he buys with real cash is the same item/mech that I buy with c-bills. Its not better, he just got it faster.