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[Disco] Catapult Performance Issues


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#1 Renthrak

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:59 AM

Throughout the development of the game, numerous 'Mechs have been discussed extensively at one time or another. Often, it is a reaction to a 'Flavor of the Month' build that proves to be uncomfortably effective. 'Dragon Bowling' and 'Swiftbacks' will be familiar to people who have been following these discussions. In the end, most of these topics die down after changes are made which alter the balance of the 'Mech, reducing or eliminating the primary issues.

An exception to this pattern seems to be the Catapult. Numerous changes have been made, but the discussions continue. At this point, I suspect both the community and PGI have little interest in radical alterations. Consequently, we are left trying to smooth out the remaining dissatisfaction without fundamentally changing the 'Mech.

The recurring issues with the Catapult appear to be divided into two categories: "It's too strong with dual heavy ballistic weapons" and "It's too strong when converted to a brawler". There is some overlap here with the AC/20 builds, but I think it would be more productive to consider the issues separately.

Heavy Ballistics:
I have really only come across one idea to deal with this issue that strikes me as potentially acceptable to most people involved. That idea is an extension of what has been done with the K2 Catapult's arms, where the size of the section changes based on the weapons carried inside. In a similar fashion, the profile of the side torso sections of the K2 could change if larger ballistic weapons are carried.

If we use other MWO 'Mechs as a reference, only the AC/20 and Gauss Rifle seem to warrant an 'oversize' section (Hunchback's Shoulder, Yen lo Wang right arm, etc), where carrying the larger weapon requires an enlarged section compared to lighter ballistic weapons on other variants. On this basis, it seems reasonable to apply a similar arrangement to the side torso sections of the K2. The gun barrel protruding from the side torsos by default could be enlarged and/or altered when an AC/20 or Gauss Rifle is carried. This would make a 'heavy ballistic' K2 more visually distinctive, as well as granting a marginal reduction in the difficulty of targeting the side torso sections, without any change to the K2's performance characteristics on paper.

Brawling:
The complaint in this area boils down to this: The performance of the Catapult chassis grants an inappropriate advantage when what is intended as a long-range support 'Mech is used as a close-range brawler. The ability to mount a decent size engine on all variants, and Jump Jets on some, provides speed and agility that serve well in close combat. In addition, the good torso twist speed and extremely wide torso twist range allow the Catapult to keep its weapons on target longer, which is very useful at shorter range.

An idea recently occurred to me that, ironically, is almost a complete inverse approach compared with the previous topic. Without making any physical changes to the Catapult 'Mech, some tweaking of its statistics could alleviate some of the problem without significantly impacting its canon role.

Now, it makes perfect sense to me that the Catapult would have a wide torso twist range, as this would allow a stationary Catapult to provide fire support to the majority of the battlefield without changing position. Consequently, finding a justification for a reduced torso twist range is difficult. Instead, I would suggest changing the rate of torso rotation, so that the torso twist is slower. This would have a minimal impact at long range, only becoming a notable hindrance up close, where the Catapult is not meant to excel. Similarly, a reduction in the (non-torso) turn rate for the Catapult would make it less able to compete with brawlers such as the Dragon for maneuverability while 'dog fighting'.

The Catapult, being designed from the ground-up as a support 'Mech, would not be balanced for maximum maneuverability or rapid reaction, so this is compatible with canon. This also fits well with the developers' stated goal of making the performance nuances of different chassis more meaningful.

Thoughts?

Edited by Renthrak, 24 November 2012 - 02:06 AM.


#2 DeadlyNerd

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:25 AM

The canon role of the catapult was never to boat short range missles (that's the only efficient brawler), except the hero version. So you wont be steering away from canon by taking that away from the current build.

Thing is that developers tried to stick to canon but only managed to do so considering hard point system. They never fully accounted for all of the weaponry mounted on ALL variants in TT and never made restrictions according to that.

I'll say it again, as long as HPS isn't changed and balanced out we'll all be piloting Hero Mechs. What's the point of the YLW then?

Despite TLDR, your arguments are well in place but sadly you'll be outvoiced by the "you butt.hurt over streakapults and gausspults bro?" troll crowd.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 24 November 2012 - 03:26 AM.


#3 Kobura

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:38 AM

You're unfortunately making quite a few points which are all sensible, feasible, well thought-out, and with a calm head.

GET OUT (a joke relating to the forums normal tone)

#4 Renthrak

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

View PostDeadlyNerd, on 24 November 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Despite TLDR, your arguments are well in place but sadly you'll be outvoiced by the "you butt.hurt over streakapults and gausspults bro?" troll crowd.

View PostKobura, on 24 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

You're unfortunately making quite a few points which are all sensible, feasible, well thought-out, and with a calm head.

GET OUT (a joke relating to the forums normal tone)


I don't particularly mind being trolled, because it makes the task of identifying the ignorant far easier. The fact that the first two responses are not trolls is a good sign already. It is my belief that the only way to have the kind of intelligent discussions that something as complex as a game requires, is to persevere in the face of idiocy. This is made more difficult by the fact that it takes quite a bit more time and effort to make a reasoned argument rather than to just type "lol, u mad bro?" and move on, but it is for this reason that the intelligent people must not be dissuaded from attempting to contribute. Trolls rely on the idea that if you say something often enough and loudly enough, you win. It is entirely possible for the non-trolls to win that contest, as long as we are willing to make the effort and not give up.

Edited by Renthrak, 24 November 2012 - 12:59 PM.


#5 Scrawny Cowboy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:41 PM

Would love for a Dev to drop in here and at least explain why the K2, since its introduction to the game, has never seen any major changes.

As for the other Cata variant that boats nothing but missle hardpoints, it's fine. Streak SRM's are the issue right now, not the A1 itself.

Great breakdown of the overall mech, Renthrak!

Edited by B3RZ3RK3R, 24 November 2012 - 04:41 PM.


#6 Imagine Dragons

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

Man, I wish I was that clever, I would of suggested adding "crit space limits" to hardpoints...

Your approach OP, is much less intrusive... for everybody...

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 24 November 2012 - 06:21 PM.


#7 canned wolf

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

I've been advocating for the graphic change since July, but the twist rate change is a new one. I would just clarify that I wouldn't apply the twist rate change to the K2. Mainly in an effort to keep K2 pilots from completely losing their minds.

#8 Renthrak

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:58 PM

View Postcanned wolf, on 24 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I would just clarify that I wouldn't apply the twist rate change to the K2. Mainly in an effort to keep K2 pilots from completely losing their minds.


The K2 is designed as a mid-range direct fire support 'Mech, so I would advocate maybe half of the twist rate reduction applied to the other variants. A good reason for a slower torso twist for the K2 is that it is more or less a 'sniper' type, and a twitchy torso control that moves the reticule by a meter or two with a touch of the joystick would interfere with precision targeting at longer ranges, while a smooth but slower movement would improve target tracking ability.





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