28 replies to this topic

[Ragor]

The GECM will for sure influence the gameplay a lot.
And I really appreciate it with all the options GECM will give to a team.

But I am quite unhappy about how many mechs will be able to equip it.
And the chassis where it makes the most sense it is restricted to only one variant:

The Raven.
This 35t mech even got its name because of the e-warfare equipment it carries. The special gear which forced the designers of the chassis to enlarge the CT into a huge 'picker' to provide the space for all the stuff.
(But the creators of the TT build rules didn't care about it and turned this unique gear into equipment everybody can mount and castrated the Raven into just another generic 35t chassis...)

Please PGI, even since it is already too late regarding the design process, please reconsider the availability of the GECM option.

IMO the GECM does not have to be available on nearly every chassis.

IMO one or two variants per weightclass would be enough, exception the Raven where it should be available on all of them.

Just to give the Raven its unique role.
For a more true character of all chassis & variants.

E-Warfare (GECM) is a specific role on the battlefield which IMO should be really restricted to mechs which had been designed to perform it.


I really hope I am not alone with my stance and that even some of people at PGI agree with me or at least get my point.

As a sidenote:
I'd love to see the BAP be more powerful but as well restricted to some variants. But for sure less restricted than the GECM.

Edit:
I am talking about the announcment of the GECM mechanics:
http://mwomercs.com/...37#entry1499337

Edited by Ragor, 28 November 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Deadoon]

Frankly, I see no logical reason you shouldn't be able to mount it on every mech. It is a electronic warfare suite that protects you, any mech designer worth their **** would at least allow you to have access to it as a after market addon.

[ATao]

Free bumb to a similar topic.

I think ECM should be restricted to a specific number of mechs that are currently inferior to other configurations to give them a decent role on the battlefield as well.

Raven? Yeah mostly, it's a crappy light right now. Some configs of commando? Good idea too unless it's 3*streak config. JR7-K cause it's the only crapajenner atm.

Mediums? Not sure. Maybe. Needs investigation. Don't really mind officially announced cicada. Maybe some cent and hunch with not-so-good hardpoint layouts. Not running meds right now as they are crappy in comparison with heavies.

Heavies? Serious no-no. They are just too good for ECM atm. All of them.

Assaults? Mmm. Don't give to atlas. Not D-DC at least. Better to K variant as it's the weakest atlas or even better to awesome. Awesome is seriously underused right now cause well... atlas it just better in too many aspects. Give awe ECM and it has a decent role as well. Which config? Not sure, don't use awesomes much. They suck atm .

Deadoon, on 28 November 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

I see no logical reason you shouldn't be able to mount it on every mech

BALANCE. It's a game. It has balance. You should be careful with it. Is that logic good enough? ECM can make OP mech configs even more OP or can help inferior configs become viable options as well. I don't need to ask which one is better, right?

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 28 November 2012 - 04:29 AM.

[Ragor]

As I just stated in the linked thread,
I'd like to see BAP restricted as well like GECM but more powerful.

And then the Jenner should get for sure the BAP option.
But GECM? Sorry, not a fan of it.


But I'm a friend of passing the GECM to the AS7-DDC since it is some kind of second line command unit.

Edited by Ragor, 28 November 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Voidsinger]

My view on this.

Medium mechs are getting shafted.

Every mech apart from the Atlas is a key strike mech, fast movers that attack, which means the guardian would go to the enemy camp with them.

Without a Centurion or even Hunchback option, there isn't really a way for Guardian to act defensively without pulling scouting power out.

[Ragor]

Voidsinger, on 28 November 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

My view on this.

Medium mechs are getting shafted.

Every mech apart from the Atlas is a key strike mech, fast movers that attack, which means the guardian would go to the enemy camp with them.

Without a Centurion or even Hunchback option, there isn't really a way for Guardian to act defensively without pulling scouting power out.

Why is this a bad thing?

Mediums and heavies are the workhorses on the battlefield.
Assaults a very specific job as well.
And lights are all specialised. (skirmisher/scout/e-warfare/scout defense/sniper)

The workhorses form the battleline, push the tactic.
The lights support them (without the need to primarily fight the enemy) with intel, GECM cover and AMS.

But due to GECM I really see organized premades dominate even more.

[grayson marik]

+1 to op

[Voidsinger]

Ragor, on 28 November 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Why is this a bad thing?

Mediums and heavies are the workhorses on the battlefield.
Assaults a very specific job as well.
And lights are all specialised. (skirmisher/scout/e-warfare/scout defense/sniper)

The workhorses form the battleline, push the tactic.
The lights support them (without the need to primarily fight the enemy) with intel, GECM cover and AMS.

But due to GECM I really see organized premades dominate even more.

The reason is 8 man teams, and people's preferences for heavies and assaults.

While Guardian on fast strikers makes it a potent offence, it makes problems using it defensively. Essentially, what you do if you want your formation to have some ECM is you either have the appropriate Atlas, or you need a light to lose all the speed edge that is necessary to survive, in order to pace with assault mechs which often have 1/3 the speed, otherwise they get outside the bubble.

As for the Raven fan club. Get over it. In 3049, the Raven was still a Capellan only mech, which meant that every other House had to plan their own platforms. The Raven has all the viabilities of the other 35s. Speed is weaker, but speed variations like this aren't unusual. It has varied hardpoints across models, and is the lightest mech with ballistic hardpoints.

The Raven may have been slated for the Capellan ECM developments, but they were shelved in favour of the Beagle and Guardian when they were recovered. The Raven was designed for Capellan requirements at the time. Interesting historically, but the 3L gets an extra module slot because of it. The Raven isn't really special (I prefer the Kuritan Hitman).

[Deadoon]

Basically everyone is afraid of the ecm ,and doesn't want to have to fight based on eyes only? That's what I'm getting from this thread.

[Ragor]

Voidsinger, on 28 November 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

The reason is 8 man teams, and people's preferences for heavies and assaults.

While Guardian on fast strikers makes it a potent offence, it makes problems using it defensively. Essentially, what you do if you want your formation to have some ECM is you either have the appropriate Atlas, or you need a light to lose all the speed edge that is necessary to survive, in order to pace with assault mechs which often have 1/3 the speed, otherwise they get outside the bubble.
(...)

Still do not understand what is 'wrong' with my stance.
A bunch of heavies and mediums form the mainforce, a light mech with GECM is covering them.
Using his agility to make sure that his 'cattle' remains under the umbrella he is creating and uses his spead to make sure that his cattle is always between him and the enemy.


What I personally dislike is the point that GECM becomes a too common part of equipment on the battlefield since even 'workhorses' are allowes to carry it.
This IMO just promotes lone-wolving.
With more restrictions overall teamplay and -tactics would be forced to some degree since everybodies role on the battlefield would be more specific, less Jack-of-all-trades.

(My personal theoretical basic set up:
Atlas with GECM in the middle of the cattle, 2 scouts ahead scrambling & tagging the enemy or fall back and assist the mainforce. But again, that is just me and I for sure do not decide what is good and what not. Just expressing my opinion, feel free to disagree.)

[Voidsinger]

I don't fear it. I've been waiting quite a while. I do feel it is a touch overpowered.

What annoys me are these people wanting to make it Raven only.

Understand that we are in 3049. The Capellan Confederation is still rebuilding their military from the Fourth Succession War, and hates the Fedcoms with a passion. Suspiscion is the order of the day. It isn't until 3051 that Jaime Wolf gathers the leaders of the great powers and gets them to grudgingly agree to work together somewhat. Remember, we are going into factional warfare, so political states do matter.

The Raven has only just started to deploy. You think they'd export them given the state the Capellan military is in?

Yet against all this, it's an attitude of Ravens for everyone. The Raven reflected Capellan situation at the time. They lacked the numbers to deploy separate platforms and rolled it into one. Their own solution, innovative as it was, was also grossly inferior to the BAP and GECM, which could be installed on any mech.

I really don't like the Raven, never have, never will. I just don't like seeing limits like this placed, with people calling for exclusives and special treatment. I mean the Panther was slower, and reflected the need for a solution to a problem. The Commando is effectively sidelined by the current battle conditions, where the universal C3i has removed the ambush function from its repetoire. It gets ECM probably to keep the mech relevant in the game.

Maybe the Raven needs some love, but I think the mediums need it more. They gave ECM to the Cicada, a light playing at medium. No slower platform got it. This means that without people liking the Cent and HB for the mechs they are, they will become 2nd rate choices as people prefer the Cicada for speed and ECM.

[RFMarine]

ive only seen a few ravens in the past weeks. there should be some extra electronic warfare module that is limited to all raven variants, otherwise no one will use it

[Ragor]

Voidsinger, on 28 November 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

(...)

I agree with you to some degree.

But IMO the GECM option for mediums is nothing the Hunchback or the Centiurion should get since their job on the battlefield is a to be an honest, solid workhorse. Not a funky specialized e-warfare mech.
IMO a GECM option for mediums is something for an not yet implemented/announced medium in the future to fill the gap.
IMO artifically pushing it onto a chassis due to the actual limited possible options is not the way to go.

Edited by Ragor, 28 November 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[Deadoon]

Ragor, on 28 November 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I agree with you to some degree.

But IMO the GECM option for mediums is nothing the Hunchback or the Centiurion should get since their job on the battlefield is a to be an honest, solid workhorse. Not a funky specialized e-warfare mech.
IMO a GECM option for mediums is something for an not yet implemented/announced medium in the future to fill the gap.
IMO artifically pushing it onto a chassis due to the actual limited possible options is not the way to go.

So why not allow mediums to use it for themselves, it detracts from their firepower, heat capacity, speed or armor so they have more electronic warfare capacity on their side. If they limit the ecm to ravens, pseudo Hollander anti-missile-boat ravens will appear mounting a freaking gauss or erppc. These will be annoying at the very least to everyone, especially due to the numbers they's appear in.

By having the ecm limited to certain chassis, you benefit greatly only the minority that use those or are grouped up and working with those that use them. It will cause a massive problem that will take a while to fully flesh out in that everyone is in one of these chassis and there is no variety. If a BAP, a freaking acvanced detection system of sorts fits in my leg why can't I fit one of these in the other?

Here is a balancing factor, you have a guardian active, and you can be seen by anyone with a BAP within 500 meters through walls, but still cannot get a lock on due to the jamming. After all a beagle is supposed to be aware of the jamming.

[Ragor]

It would totally agree if the GECM would only cover the equipped mech.

But since creates an umbrella with a diameter of 360m... feel free to disagree, but IMO this shouldn't be anything which is available to a wide array of variants.

[Comassion]

I'm a Jenner pilot (I run an F, but still). The Jenner F and D are already incredible 'mechs, and I mean incredible. They're simply amazing at what they do.

Neither of those variants needs ECM to continue being awesome and viable. As a Jenner pilot, I'd highly recommend that you not add ECM to any Jenner, and give it to the Raven instead. That will give me a reason to consider running that chassis as well as my Jenners.

If you MUST give it to a Jenner, give it to the K. It's already down a missile hardpoint compared to the D - why make the D better and leave the K where it is?

[Zyllos]

Here is my proposal on ECM and supporting EW equipment:

- Allow BAP to work against targets being shielded by ECM. It is already extremely reduced effectiveness due to ECM reducing the base sensor range to 200m (BAP would increase it to 250m). If the ECM is within the jamming distance (180m), then allow the ECM to remove the effectiveness of BAP, which is what is already planned.

- Change NARC to give target lock without LoS for 60s. Then leave the current implementation in that ECM shielded targets with NARC on him/her to not give their location away. Also, for the future of PPCs, make the EMP blast destroy NARCs on targets either by hitting the PPC close to the NARC target or actually being hit by PPCs.

- Only allow select mechs to run in Disrupt mode (Raven and Atlas). All other ECM equippable mechs should be allowed to run Counter mode ECM only. This will regulate various variants as ECM/EW hunters while keeping the actual ECM/EW variants unique in their roles.

- Keep all other proposed changes/additions for ECM.

Edited by Zyllos, 28 November 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

Should of been Jenner-K, not D...

[Brandeis]

I agree with Deadoon, let any mech have ECM since it can be equipped as an aftermarket part.

Also I see a lot of people arguing over the Jenner. This is why I hate the hardpoint system that this game has. In lore the K was supposed to be a slightly more durable version of the D with the same weapons. It was supposed to have ferro-fibrous armor, and CASE by default, so you don't blow up when someone crits the ST with the ammo in it, and it only lost a few points of armor to make up for the added half ton of the CASE.

I think that needs to be fixed instead of people complaining that the K gimped just because it is down a missile hardpoint.

[Aegis Kleais]

ECM is extremely powerful, so only a few select chassis should have it (A decent amount of Ravens, but not all, since it is known for its countermeasures capabilities)

ECM should definitely not be available on all chassis/variants.

PGI already made a statement that after time they would look at other chassis that don't have it to see if they may warrant giving them support. We need to give them time to see ECM in public play before they can make a more informed decision about it.