19 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

* Beagle Active Probe (increases sensor range by 25%, faster target level acquisition by 25%, allows targeting of unpowered mechs within 120m).

ECM:
* ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).
* Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
* Disables enemy NARC
* Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
* Slow down weapon locks by 25%
* Slow down target gathering by 25%
* Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Counter Mode:

* Neutralizes 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in Disruption mode.

These are the listed item specifications from the latest patch notes.

The BAP functions sound like what you need to make the enhanced sensor upgrade do for your mech. It doesn't sound like something you want to use instead of bigger guns, more ammunition or more heat sinks.

Let's face it.... ECM is amazing and BAP is just not by comparison. The root of the problem is that the BAP should counter the ECM. By design the BAP should give you instant and continual target data of anything within 120m (even targets with ECM). That would be a module worth using. If you think BAP is useful at all then look at the last feature of the disrupt category of the ECM. That's just wrong.

The design of having ECM being countered by ECM is a mistake. If you don't believe that then devs look at the number of people who even bother to use BAP compared to people who do not use ECM on an ECM capable mech.

If BAP countered ECM then lights would need to find more weight to use BAP to counter ECM. This would be a nice nerf to lights who were made even better by this last patch. Making ECM counter ECM is a weight saving measure that lights do not need.

Wouldn't this make the ECM worthless? No because they still have an increased lock on time. It also means the ECM would be worse than it is now (which judging by forum response) is exactly wht it needs. If BAP countered ECM then everyone would probably start carrying BAP..... just like how everyone uses AMS most of the time. Take any mech and give it 4 extra tons and that's a big deal. AMS, ammo and the BAP (if I recall AMS, ammo and the BAP weigh 4 tons).

This would make people be required to take more utility into battle. Now granted you don't need it every game but when you need it and don't have it you just lose that fight unless you can run. If you run into an ECM capable mech and you have guided weapons then you are SOL.

Look back to the game before the AMS was implemented. When it first came out everyone who could use it did as it made a huge difference in survivability vs LRMs. And while the AMS was nice... the ECM puts it to shame. On that note let me ask where is the module to increase AMS effectiveness? I'm thinking the module should allow you to shoot down SRMs and SSRMs and it should increase overall rate of fire by at least 10 or 15 percent or perhaps even 20 percent!

Edited by Glythe, 06 December 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[Lootee]

Agreed Active Probe needs to increase the distance you can lock a cloaked mech at. Just make it 350m or so.

Since NARC is all but useless now, how about restoring it to TT functionality. Make a narc beacon hit last for the rest of the match. All one needs to do is duck into an ECM bubble or have ECM to negate the effects. Permanent narc hits would not be OP in any way under this ECM system.

NARC is laughably useless even with the pitiful 20 second 'buff' that's been proposed. I'm not wasting 4 tons for some gimmick that only lasts 20 seconds in the optimal case and lasts approx 0 seconds if ECM is near by.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 06 December 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Glythe]

I have to say NARC for the whole match still might be a bit much although part of me wants to agree that it would be neat... I think it might end up being OP unless it had limits.

What is to prevent a scout from running in NARCing everything and not caring if he dies? His job is done because the enemy is marked for the entire game. I might be fine with NARC being ever lasting..... so long as the mech that does the NARCing is still alive (or has to be within say 500m of his beacon).

For NARC to begin to be useful I think you need at least a 2-3 minute duration. Anything shorter than that is worthless for the weight. Most matches tend to be over for me in the 5-7 minute range and as such I think 5 minutes is too long.

Overall I think TAG and NARC both need complete overhauls but I'd rather we tried to stay on target with BAP and ECM. But since I mentioned it..... TAG needs a toggle option (thank goodness it no longer has a range)

Edited by Glythe, 06 December 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

BAP is too weak, but I am not sure that it should act as a counter to ECM - unless you also limit what mechs can carry BAP. Otherwise, everyone can bring his 2 ton ECM counter.

I think simply increasing the detection distance and making it penetrate ECM better would suffice.

[Glythe]

BAP as a counter to ECM makes far more sense than ECM as a counter to itself.

Remember too that I am proposing that BAP have a 120m radius with essentially its TT rules while the ECM has a 180m radius.

Isn't that the point to have paper beat rock?

You can counter my 2 tons with your 2 tons and so forth.

I'll grant you that only maybe about half the mechs should be able to have a BAP slot.

[Orzorn]

BAP shouldn't counter ECM, but what it should do is act as a buffer against ECM.

A mech mounting BAP should have the BAP disabled by ECM, but some of their original sensor power remains. Perhaps they could get target locks outside the 180 meter range like PanchoTortilla said, but you couldn't share the information?

So BAP wouldn't work still, but it provides a buffer against ECM's effects.

I don't know about the exact effect, but I agree with the sentiment. BAP is pretty much useless as a scouting item. Its current implementation makes more useful on missile users, as the only advantages it really offers a scout is the increased sensor range. The lock on time and the lock on against shut down targets is pretty much moot on a scout unless you're using SSRMs.

[Alfred VonGunn]

I posted this in an ECM thread...

Just change ECM range reduction as follows.. In stead of teh Current all targeting reduced to 25% of normal (180m),,

Make it reduced to 30-50% of whatever the mech has.. So normal range would still be some where between 220 and 400..

BUT Mechs with Sensor Mods or BAP would have the reduction from the HIGHER range they have due to equipment..

As for NARC.. it needs to run for a min of 180 sec for time or until the external armor on the mech section it is attached to is destroyed..

[HRR Insanity]

Alfred VonGunn, on 06 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

I posted this in an ECM thread...

Just change ECM range reduction as follows.. In stead of teh Current all targeting reduced to 25% of normal (180m),,

Make it reduced to 30-50% of whatever the mech has.. So normal range would still be some where between 220 and 400..

BUT Mechs with Sensor Mods or BAP would have the reduction from the HIGHER range they have due to equipment..

As for NARC.. it needs to run for a min of 180 sec for time or until the external armor on the mech section it is attached to is destroyed..

Agree. BAP as a counter to ECM makes sense and the above implementation (50% of sensor range) is a good guesstimate.

NARC for 30 seconds would be very good. NARC for 180 sec would be overpowered.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 06 December 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[Rex Budman]

Shouldn't the LRM/SSRM mechs be able to counter the ECM, either by using BAP or using ECM themselves?

[Nonsense]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

BAP is too weak, but I am not sure that it should act as a counter to ECM - unless you also limit what mechs can carry BAP. Otherwise, everyone can bring his 2 ton ECM counter.

I second this

[Alfred VonGunn]

HRR Insanity, on 06 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Agree. BAP as a counter to ECM makes sense and the above implementation (50% of sensor range) is a good guesstimate.

NARC for 30 seconds would be very good. NARC for 180 sec would be overpowered.

Not really.. that's 180 sec OR until that section of mech external armor is destroyed.. Since it would take the narc with it.. Hell NARC by the TT rules lasts until destroyed period... 30 seconds is the bare minimum.. figure the shot. Then adjusting to new target.. Then firing.. 2 maybe 3 volleys off and it would still stop before they all arrived in 30 sec..

[Khobai]

Its quite frankly dumb for ECM to act as its own counter. All that does is encourage more ECM. Which means taking a mech without ECM is pointless...

[Glythe]

Khobai, on 06 December 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Its quite frankly dumb for ECM to act as its own counter. All that does is encourage more ECM. Which means taking a mech without ECM is pointless...

Basically it means that you only play through the non ECM mechs to open up Master for the ECM capable mechs. That's poor design because there are only 4 ECM mechs right now (I think). A year from now you'll never see an Atlas D (non founder) or an Atlas K..... because no one is grinding it. If they want to play an Atlas they'll bring out the DDC.

Edited by Glythe, 09 December 2012 - 02:49 AM.

[Asmosis]

The counter to something strong should not be the same thing. Rock beats Rock (which beats everything else) is just silly.

[HC Harlequin]

http://mwomercs.com/...cm/page__st__20

[Chacatumbi]

I just can't beleive that more people dont see how ECM is too good... I'm assuming you havent run into premade 8s with 2 ravens and 6 DDC's... Well, if you play 8 mans, get used to it. Jenners are useless as a scout with ECM. Brawlers are useless while being jammed b/c you cant see enemies or friendlies. Not only does it shut down SSRM and LRM, it also causes huge team chaos. Making your oponents radar not work is ridulously good. So what is the counter? Both teams having all ECM... Hurray for variety.

[ElcomeSoft]

PanchoTortilla, on 06 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Agreed Active Probe needs to increase the distance you can lock a cloaked mech at. Just make it 350m or so.

Like this idea a lot, especially as I have certain builds which have used BAP since Day 1.

Definitely make it so that if a BAP-user cuts through the ECM a little and can target a mech, the whole team can also target said mech.

[Taizan]

Utility wise, BAP is imo second place to ECM and still viable for some few opportunites and specialized roles, heavily dependent on the map and what your enemy is bringing along.

[Glythe]

Wait a minute..... calling BAP second place after ECM is like saying the LPL is second compared to the large laser.

ECM is downright amazing and BAP in ints current form is not worth the weight.

[Vassago Rain]

I take both if I can, and the sensor range module.