84 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

I ask you 3 questions, all in the polls.

1. Can you enforce honour?
2. Should we enforce honour?
3. How should Clan vs. IS matches play?

While Clanners are superior technologically in every way, they have morals that prevent them from playing to their fullest potential.

Edited by Zakatak, 15 May 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[Arbhall Sommers]

Nope, you cant legislate behaviour.

I can think of no way to enforce it other than a batchal before each match where clansmen put up their stakes, and limitations. Like a half load of ammo or only one weapon sort of thing. The clans know they have the edge and used it in the invasion. Only in engagements where the clans bartered foolishly did they really suffer.
As a clanner against my brother in TT, initially i was entirely ruthless and destroyed him 9-10 times. later i limited myself to mid range weapons or only carried minimal ammo stores( when i took ammo weapons). Something like that could work, but i dont see it being implemented easily.

I would like to see Clan /IS matches where the IS outnumbers the clans and automatically have the defensive role, with bonuses to their defenses. They were being invaded after all. Clans also commonly took far fewer mech than they needed to, to win in the field.

[HeartoftheJaguar]

I don't think the game should enforce honor in Clan players, but rather encourage honorable play. The developers have mentioned in the past about using the carrot, rather than the stick to shape the players into behaving the way they would like, and I think that's the right idea. As much as I love the lore of the Clanners and their code of honor, I think it would be too much to expect everyone, especially newcomers to the genre and the Battletech universe, to have to adhere to a very specific style of play. In other words, punishing players for playing the way they like is just going to turn all but the most hardcore fans away from Mechwarrior Online. What can be done instead, is simply rewarding players for playing honorably, through points or what have you. Make Clan players want to play honorably rather than forcing them to.

[Zylo]

HeartoftheJaguar, on 15 May 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

I don't think the game should enforce honor in Clan players, but rather encourage honorable play. The developers have mentioned in the past about using the carrot, rather than the stick to shape the players into behaving the way they would like, and I think that's the right idea. As much as I love the lore of the Clanners and their code of honor, I think it would be too much to expect everyone, especially newcomers to the genre and the Battletech universe, to have to adhere to a very specific style of play. In other words, punishing players for playing the way they like is just going to turn all but the most hardcore fans away from Mechwarrior Online. What can be done instead, is simply rewarding players for playing honorably, through points or what have you. Make Clan players want to play honorably rather than forcing them to.

The problem with this would be some players choosing clans for what amounts to an "I WIN" button while throwing out all clan tactics and honor even if it meant minimum C-bill or faction gains for a win. They wouldn't care about a tough grind for faction or C-bills if they could pretty much win every fight by throwing out any tactics that might even the fights a bit.

[Cifu]

I'm just can agree about what HeartoftheJaguar says.

It's been a very hard battle to maintain the Clanner spirit well.

In the question about the misbalancing....

1.: The Clanners need to go the battle the least force what they think they can win that battle. So it's actually in the clanner spirit to do so.
2.: The IS players only can eat dirt, when the clan invasion begins, and the battles are making around the same level of forces. The Clanners had superior technology, if this not calculated into the match-making, the MWO become a Turkey shoot, which is not the most enjoyable game experience for the turkeys.

[Garth Erlam]

How about this: Clan players follow Zellbrigen, and to enforce it Clan players will not be able to shoot at any enemy that has not fired upon them.

[Aegis Kleais]

This thread title should say ROLEPlaying as a Clanner

I'm of the belief that if you want to roleplay, have at it; but never force it.

[Zylo]

Garth Erlam, on 15 May 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

How about this: Clan players follow Zellbrigen, and to enforce it Clan players will not be able to shoot at any enemy that has not fired upon them.

Wouldn't this just encourage IS forces not to engage though?

Scout for IS team in a Jenner is running around, finds a clan scout, knows the clan scout can't fire on him, keeps running to light up the rest of the clan team then pulls back and waits for the rest of his IS team to start a long range attack.

Edited by Zylo, 15 May 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Cifu]

Garth Erlam, on 15 May 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

How about this: Clan players follow Zellbrigen, and to enforce it Clan players will not be able to shoot at any enemy that has not fired upon them.

It's would be nice, but really thinks the player base understand such restrictions?

Note: it's actually a hefty thing to put into the program. Just imagine:

Clanner player going into the battle, see an IS player in a fast Mech (lets say a Cicada), and fire upon them (the Cicade named as a target of the Clanner). But the Cicada decide to run away, and their mates are step forward to get the base. The Clanner player can't fire upon them, because they won't fire, and he cannot fire because the restrictions...

EDIT:

On second tough, the IS actually USE this kind of tactics. So why not?
But then many Clan warrior simply won't follow the Zellbrigen against the IS forces, because of this - as in the lore...

Edited by Cifu, 15 May 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[That Guy]

being a clanner should mean something, and even getting into the clans needs to be difficult. only the hardcore should play clan, and casuals and munchkins need not apply. playing as a clanner needs to be a cut throat as it would be in the clans, with trials, and getting booted out for poor performance, inactivity, or poor behavior.

dont want to deal with that ****? dont go clan

with great firepower comes great responsibility

[Cifu]

That Guy, on 15 May 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

being a clanner should mean something, and even getting into the clans needs to be difficult. only the hardcore should play clan, and casuals and munchkins need not apply. playing as a clanner needs to be a cut throat as it would be in the clans, with trials, and getting booted out for poor performance, inactivity, or poor behavior.

dont want to deal with that ****? dont go clan

with great firepower comes great responsibility

So you exclude the majority of the players from the Clanners that easily?

Because the rules, what you suggested, the Clan side got most of the hardcore player, while the IS got all the below-average players. This gonna be a great gaming experience for the Clan players, because they not only get the better technology, but even get the sets of the better players - easy win for every battle.

Do you really think this is what made the MWO a great and exiting game? Split the player base for the "hardcore" clanner side and the "casual and munchkins" IS side?

Edited by Cifu, 15 May 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Zylo]

The more I think about it the more it seems like the only true balance between clan and IS will be allowing IS access to clan tech in some way or restricting each side so that IS just fights other IS factions and the clans all fight clan vs clan.

There is a significant risk that many players would simply start another account (being F2P chances of this are very good) and join the winning team if the balance is in the favor of 1 side or the other. It would be bad for the health of the game if all the players who want easy wins abandon the IS and switch to clans either by switching sides with the original account or simply by starting a new account.

[McQueen]

To bring up an example from another F2P game, In STO you need to reach a certain rank before you can play as a KDF character. In PvP the KDF wins more often then not because of better tech, cloaking devises, and more PvP experience then the average Fed player. I know STO has PvE which MWO will not, but I still think having to jump through some hoops to get into the Clans is the way to go. Also, in canon the Clanners are suppose to be better Mechwarriors.

[Gigaton]

Garth Erlam, on 15 May 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

How about this: Clan players follow Zellbrigen, and to enforce it Clan players will not be able to shoot at any enemy that has not fired upon them.

Too easy for IS, IMO. With any kind of coordination the fight would be 12* times 12 vs. 1 (*depending on how many 'mechs Clanners get).

I'd rather enforce Zell like this:

Clan player needs to designate IS 'mech as their target. Only one Clan player can have any given IS 'mech designated as his target. Any Clan player may have as many targets designated as he wishes (but if one Clanners hogs all opponents, then others won't be able to designate anyone until he goes poof). These designations are made known to IS players, as it is assumed the Clanner announces his intents over the comms with copious amount of bravado.

Clan players will only gain experience/loyality points/cash for damaging their designated target(s). Shooting at undesignated target gains you nothing. Shooting at target other Clanner has already designated yields outright penalties, possibly a reduction of loyality points for example.

This system would strongly encourage Clanners to do 1-1 or 1-2 fights but would not entirely force down the system. For example, the Clan team may choose to leave a fast scout entirely undesignated so that anyone can fight it. This would deny some exp and C-Bills but ability to deal with the scout quickly may be critical for the teams victory.

Loopholes exist of course. It would be possible for a player who has already achieved everything possible (all that needs to be unlocked with exp and loyality points already unlocked) to simply ignore the system and play with his own rules.

Edited by Gigaton, 15 May 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

IMO, the RP aspect (non-use of contractions, use of Clan-speak, the "attitude", etc) can ans should be moderated by the players

However, the mechanics of playing Clan (mainly enforcing Zell) should, IMO, be built into the game itself; maybe I just have too little faith in humanity, but I suspect that the proportion of would-be Clanners that would actually pay Zell any mind, much less adhere to it while at the helm of their 'Mech, would be so small as to not be statistically significant.

As such:

Quote

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.

A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.
Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.

IMO, Clan vs IS should be run at a ratio of one Binary (two Stars, representing a total of 10 Clan 'Mechs) to one Company (three Lances, representing a total of 12 IS 'Mechs).

Additionally:
1.) Similar to Gigaton's suggestion, each Clanner would be able to designate any as-yet unclaimed unit from the opposing team as "theirs" to defeat.
Said Clanner would then be responsible for defeating each of their claimed target(s) by engaging them single-handedly.
One Clanner firing on another another's already-claimed target(s) results in one moderate penalty being leveled against the entire team, AND a second, more substantial penalty being leveled against the offending player for each shot that lands.

2.) Any unit that fires on a Clan 'Mech is automatically "claimed" by the Clanner in question.
All IS units and Clan units of a weight class different from that of the Clanner in question "claimed" in such a manner would be designated differently from those actively "claimed" by the Clanner in question; the former would be able to be "unclaimed" if not fired upon by the Clanner in question while the latter must be engaged.
Any not-previously "claimed" unit that the Clanner in question fires upon is considered "claimed" as though it had been actively "claimed" by the Clanner in question.

3.) Use of Artillery and AOE weapons imparts a minor penalty against the entire team AND an additional moderate penalty against the offending Clanner with each firing (regardless of whether any targets are actually hit by said artillery or AOE weapons).

4.) Breaking line-of-sight from all "claimed" targets for an extended period (ex. more than 10 seconds) imparts a moderate penalty against the offending Clanner.

5.) Starting a round with a 'Mech equipped with a C3 system or TAG unit imparts a moderate penalty against the offending Clanner AND an additional minor penalty against the entire team for each 'Mech so equipped.

All penalties would be levied against any or all of the Clan player's/unit's XP earned, Loyalty Points (or equivalent), and currency units earned.
The intent is to outline a system that makes it not worth would-be Clanners' while "to play as basically IS with starter access to generally-bettter equipment" rather than "to play as the Clans in both spirit as well as in name", while still being flexible enough to address most situations that could come up.
(I realize that my short outline could not possible cover all possible situations, but it's meant more as a seed to promote discussion than to be a comprehensive solution unto itself.)

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 15 May 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Strum Wealh, on 15 May 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

IMO, the RP aspect (non-use of contractions, use of Clan-speak, the "attitude", etc) can ans should be moderated by the players

However, the mechanics of playing Clan (mainly enforcing Zell) should, IMO, be built into the game itself; maybe I just have too little faith in humanity, but I suspect that the proportion of would-be Clanners that would actually pay Zell any mind, much less adhere to it while at the helm of their 'Mech, would be so small as to not be statistically significant.

As such:


IMO, Clan vs IS should be run at a ratio of one Binary (two Stars, representing a total of 10 Clan 'Mechs) to one Company (three Lances, representing a total of 12 IS 'Mechs).

Additionally:
1.) Similar to Gigaton's suggestion, each Clanner would be able to designate any as-yet unclaimed unit from the opposing team as "theirs" to defeat.
Said Clanner would then be responsible for defeating each of their claimed target(s) by engaging them single-handedly.
One Clanner firing on another another's already-claimed target(s) results in one moderate penalty being leveled against the entire team, AND a second, more substantial penalty being leveled against the offending player for each shot that lands.

2.) Any unit that fires on a Clan 'Mech is automatically "claimed" by the Clanner in question.
All IS units and Clan units of a weight class different from that of the Clanner in question "claimed" in such a manner would be designated differently from those actively "claimed" by the Clanner in question; the former would be able to be "unclaimed" if not fired upon by the Clanner in question while the latter must be engaged.
Any not-previously "claimed" unit that the Clanner in question fires upon is considered "claimed" as though it had been actively "claimed" by the Clanner in question.

3.) Use of Artillery and AOE weapons imparts a minor penalty against the entire team AND an additional moderate penalty against the offending Clanner with each firing (regardless of whether any targets are actually hit by said artillery or AOE weapons).

4.) Breaking line-of-sight from all "claimed" targets for an extended period (ex. more than 10 seconds) imparts a moderate penalty against the offending Clanner.

5.) Starting a round with a 'Mech equipped with a C3 system or TAG unit imparts a moderate penalty against the offending Clanner AND an additional minor penalty against the entire team for each 'Mech so equipped.

All penalties would be levied against any or all of the Clan player's/unit's XP earned, Loyalty Points (or equivalent), and currency units earned.
The intent is to outline a system that makes it not worth would-be Clanners' while "to play as basically IS with starter access to generally-bettter equipment" rather than "to play as the Clans in both spirit as well as in name", while still being flexible enough to address most situations that could come up.
(I realize that my short outline could not possible cover all possible situations, but it's meant more as a seed to promote discussion than to be a comprehensive solution unto itself.)

Your thoughts?

Good stuff.

[ChalybsUmbra]

Does Clan Wolf also suffer the same penalties for violating Zellbrigen even though they were the first Clan to (mostly) drop it?

[CSG Gunslinger]

Aegis Kleais™, on 15 May 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

This thread title should say ROLEPlaying as a Clanner

I'm of the belief that if you want to roleplay, have at it; but never force it.

That.

Having done this for a good long time I don't role play, I also tend to play in Merc units where the almighty C-Bill is king, each to his own I say.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I could not log a vote because the questions you ask on the surface are easy enough to answer, but the additional stipulations you have up there make it impossible,

Zakatak, on 15 May 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

I ask you 3 questions, all in the polls.

1. Can you enforce honour?
2. Should we enforce honour?
3. How should Clan vs. IS matches play?

While Clanners are superior technologically in every way, they have morals that prevent them from playing to their fullest potential.

Sure I would like to see that but,

Quote

Yes, by punishing dishonorable play (shooting the rear, ganging up, legging) for the player.

1. Shooting the rear of a mech is not dishonorable as in set in stone, Clan warriors may not fire on a retreating mech. A mech walking backwards is not necessarily a retreating mech because it can still fire on you. A mech with 180 degree or more of torso twist may not necessarily be retreating even though it is walking away from you with its back to you, because it can twist & bring its weapons to bear on you. Some clans have a preference for not shooting the rear but it is NOT the standard by which all Clan forces hold themselves to. A mech that is just trying to leave the battlefield as quickly as possible during a battle is not necessarily retreating, they may have run out of ammo & are heading back to their bay to re-arm. If one Clan grants the other hegira, that Clan will definitely NOT shoot at the mechs leaving the field not matter how they are moving. An enemy that has routed will not be fired upon as they have dishonored themselves.

This is not MW3 so do not include legging as a dishonorable act. It was not even dishonorable at the beginning until somebody started whining about it. I played MW3 & MW3:PM. I never had a problem with legging.

If anyone remembers the invasion of Somerset (if you saw the Battletech Animated Series or read the sourcebook) the 1st enemy mech taken down by Star Colonel Nicolai Malthus (of Clan Jade Falcon) was a leg shot http://www.youtube.c...ssjkMeU#t=2m31s

He disabled the mech quickly & moved on to his other 2 opponents. Clansmen take pride in being able to aim at & destroy specific parts on an enemy mech.

Quote

Leaving no doubt as to why the BattleMech had ruled warfare since its creation six centuries earlier, the Masakari concentrated all four of its guns on the downed Daishi. Aiming in deliberate and well-practiced moves that showed Victor why the Clans had so easily swept through the Inner Sphere, the Masakari opened the Daishi's back like a coroner doing an autopsy. The PPC bolts fried structural stabilizers while the lasers sliced through ferro-titanium ribs.

The lasers freed the Daishi's fusion engine from its mountings. It dropped down, the safeguards in it snuffing the reaction before it could explode. As if the Masakari had pulled the Daishi's heart out, Victor's 'Mech shuddered once, then all the monitors died, leaving him hanging in a hot, dark cocoon.

The deathly stillness pressed in on him, then he shook his head. The only advantage we ever had in fighting the Clans was that they always played by a rigid set of rules that gave us a tactical edge. If they ever come to embrace the flexibility that Phelan and the others showed here, Ragnar won't be the only Prince of the Inner Sphere sporting a bondcord.

Natural Selection Pg. 35

This is what we do. Quick take downs using as little energy or ammo as possible to preserve ourselves for a long line of opponents. We are not Inner Sphere barbarians shooting all over, we are surgeons displaying skill & precision.

2. Should we enforce honor?

Quote

Yes. For all the pros of joining the Clans, there should be cons aswell.

I completely agree & have stated so in my draft. How this would be implemented though, is another matter.

3.

Quote

Should matches be intentionally misbalanced?

Yes but not the way you them stated there.

It is a mix of the two. Clans have superior tech & pilots, the IS has superior numbers.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 15 May 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[CoffiNail]

Garth Erlam, on 15 May 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

How about this: Clan players follow Zellbrigen, and to enforce it Clan players will not be able to shoot at any enemy that has not fired upon them.

So... the IS do not fire upon a Clan player until they are all lined up infront of them and then 12 mechs all core the Clan player at once. Funny, very very funny.