17 replies to this topic

[Shark Bait]

So I've been playing ECM a lot (and who hasnt)... I mean really there simply is no other mech of choice. If you dont have ECM on your team you lose. (Talking Pugs here)....

Unfortunately I have to say that it really shouldnt have been implemented. It was by far the biggest game changer over the last 6 months or so and while I have had an extreme amount of fun with it, especially if I can get a buddy to run with me who has it too... It really should never have happened. Two 3L's rule the day... Three 3L's are even more fun, Four 3L's are Evangelical, Five are Fantastic etc.. you get the point.

So whats next, CECM? (Counter ECM)... oh wait.. we could have CCECM... or maybe CCCECM... or CCCCECM.... pretty soon we would all be running 90 ton mechs loaded with CCCCCCCCCCECM and a medium pulse laser. That would be "Awesome" (was that a pun? Oh snap.)

ECM worked great on the board game... here it doesnt translate well. Believe me I love it! I am having a blast with it and pity those that are not running a 3L.. But once everyone catches on then what?

Anyway... there is my 1 cent worth of nothing.

[Syllogy]

-1

I don't run ECM, and I have no problem mopping up ECM-based mechs.

ECM is a useful tool that might need a few tweaks, but it is not overpowered.

Edited by Syllogy, 10 December 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Weaselball]

Syllogy, on 10 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

-1

I don't run ECM, and I have no problem mopping up ECM-based mechs.

ECM is a useful tool that might need a few tweaks, but it is not overpowered.

I don't run ECM either, nor do I have ANY streak/LRM boat mechs. At most I have 1 Mech with 2 SSRM launchers, and 1 other with 2 LRM5's. So ECM really hasn't affected me much at all either.

That said, the equipment IS overpowered if you simply compare it to other equipment in the game.

Let's think this through logically:

ECM completely, 100% nullifies the effects of: Streaks, LRM's, BAP, Artemis IV.
ECM's counter is: Another ECM (horrible balancing mechanism) or TAG.

Now, granted, people could just start running TAG (which is already kinda wonky) on their mechs and be relatively "ok" but why not allow Beagle Active Probe to help with the problems as well? I'm not silly enough as some of these "ermagurd nerf ecm" guys to say "Oh, just make BAP 100% counter ECM," but have it reduce some of its effects.

For example:

BAP could allow you to still get LRM locks on mechs if your ankles are being bitten by a light mech, BUT at a reduction in range (lets say 50% for the hell of it) and the lock-on time would be doubled.

BAP could allow you to fire streak missiles if you're being jammed, BUT they have a percentage (again we can say 50%) chance to NOT hit, IE one or both missiles veer off and miss (I can already hear the QQ from the "TT is god" kids) and their lock-on time is, again,doubled.

Now, what would this accomplish?

1) ECM would still be a very potent piece of equipment. It would STILL hide your mechs from enemy sensors if theyre covered in the bubble, it would STILL prevent you from getting hit with indirect LRM fire if youre in the bubble as its target-sharing properties wouldnt be effective, and it would cut LRM and SSRM effectiveness against you, the ECM mech and buddies, in half even if you're out in the open.

2) It makes BAP desirable again. Sure, it's not "bad" right now... unless an enemy team rolls in with a few ECM mechs. Then its a waste of space. This would fix it, and make it more of a "im going to use this to help with ECM" rather than "ima drop missiles on targets I can now lock at 1000m hurr hurr."

3) Pie. Pie is better than cake. I just had to point that out.

4) It allows a bit of variety in how you kit out a mech. Are you going to roll a light mech with ECM and tag, and spot targets for your team? Are you going to roll a medium or heavy with BAP and not cry when a mech half your size shuts you down (which is silly when it happens, and is probably the pilot of the locked-out mechs fault, but regardless...) Or maybe you'll roll with BAP and ECM, and just roll faces?

TL;DR

The point is, variety is the spice of life, and the spice must flow. ECM takes the balancing and customization of the game down a narrower path than it should've.

I'm NOT saying we need to nerf ECM into the ground. Not at all. Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not calling for a single nerf to ECM at all, honestly. Keep it how it is, but allow the BAP and TAG to "partially" counter it - enough to make the ECM still good, but the BAP and TAG just as "effective" as a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that shuts down 2 pieces of equipment (Artemis and BAP) and 2 weapon systems (LRM and SSRM).

[Horned Bull]

Weaselball, on 10 December 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

I don't run ECM either, nor do I have ANY streak/LRM boat mechs. At most I have 1 Mech with 2 SSRM launchers, and 1 other with 2 LRM5's. So ECM really hasn't affected me much at all either.

That said, the equipment IS overpowered if you simply compare it to other equipment in the game.

Let's think this through logically:

ECM completely, 100% nullifies the effects of: Streaks, LRM's, BAP, Artemis IV.
ECM's counter is: Another ECM (horrible balancing mechanism) or TAG.

Now, granted, people could just start running TAG (which is already kinda wonky) on their mechs and be relatively "ok" but why not allow Beagle Active Probe to help with the problems as well? I'm not silly enough as some of these "ermagurd nerf ecm" guys to say "Oh, just make BAP 100% counter ECM," but have it reduce some of its effects.

For example:

BAP could allow you to still get LRM locks on mechs if your ankles are being bitten by a light mech, BUT at a reduction in range (lets say 50% for the hell of it) and the lock-on time would be doubled.

BAP could allow you to fire streak missiles if you're being jammed, BUT they have a percentage (again we can say 50%) chance to NOT hit, IE one or both missiles veer off and miss (I can already hear the QQ from the "TT is god" kids) and their lock-on time is, again,doubled.

Now, what would this accomplish?

1) ECM would still be a very potent piece of equipment. It would STILL hide your mechs from enemy sensors if theyre covered in the bubble, it would STILL prevent you from getting hit with indirect LRM fire if youre in the bubble as its target-sharing properties wouldnt be effective, and it would cut LRM and SSRM effectiveness against you, the ECM mech and buddies, in half even if you're out in the open.

2) It makes BAP desirable again. Sure, it's not "bad" right now... unless an enemy team rolls in with a few ECM mechs. Then its a waste of space. This would fix it, and make it more of a "im going to use this to help with ECM" rather than "ima drop missiles on targets I can now lock at 1000m hurr hurr."

3) Pie. Pie is better than cake. I just had to point that out.

4) It allows a bit of variety in how you kit out a mech. Are you going to roll a light mech with ECM and tag, and spot targets for your team? Are you going to roll a medium or heavy with BAP and not cry when a mech half your size shuts you down (which is silly when it happens, and is probably the pilot of the locked-out mechs fault, but regardless...) Or maybe you'll roll with BAP and ECM, and just roll faces?

TL;DR

The point is, variety is the spice of life, and the spice must flow. ECM takes the balancing and customization of the game down a narrower path than it should've.

I'm NOT saying we need to nerf ECM into the ground. Not at all. Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not calling for a single nerf to ECM at all, honestly. Keep it how it is, but allow the BAP and TAG to "partially" counter it - enough to make the ECM still good, but the BAP and TAG just as "effective" as a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that shuts down 2 pieces of equipment (Artemis and BAP) and 2 weapon systems (LRM and SSRM).

Personally I think it's a better idea to give streaks "dumbfire" mode rather than letting them lock on a target. Do you want streakcats back? even 50% hitting chance is enough for them to slaughter any non-atlas ECM carry.

[Fabian Wrede]

concept of ECm need to be redone as it's now it's the WE win stick. it has made Streals usless and LRM next to useless together with any weapon with range over 300m. ECM should be removed ASAP or lrm back to damage before ner and all beam weapoms do to all damage to single location like balistics and ppc. as game is now in randows is all about who has more ECM. To balance Streaks they need to spread damage over all location and not as it's now to torso locations only

Edited by Wrede, 10 December 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Wrede, on 10 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

concept of ECm need to be redone as it's now it's the WE win stick. it has made Streals usless and LRM next to useless together with any weapon with range over 300m. ECM should be removed ASAP or lrm back to damage before ner and all beam weapoms do to all damage to single location like balistics and ppc. as game is now in randows is all about who has more ECM. To balance Streaks they need to spread damage over all location and not as it's now to torso locations only

What?! You can't hit a target with a ballistic or energy weapon beyond 300M?!

Sounds like user error or some other problem since ECM has NOTHING to do with this. It might be netcode or lag shield, but if you flip over to infrared ('H' using the default options) you can see all sorts of hot Mech-like objects moving around (even on Caustic, though it is a bit more difficult).

I even hit targets out over 1000M with ballistics or my ERPPCs... If I can hit them (you'll know because your targeting reticle will turn red on a hit), you can too with a bit of practice.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 10 December 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[Roland]

Wrede, on 10 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

concept of ECm need to be redone as it's now it's the WE win stick. it has made Streals usless and LRM next to useless together with any weapon with range over 300m. ECM should be removed ASAP or lrm back to damage before ner and all beam weapoms do to all damage to single location like balistics and ppc. as game is now in randows is all about who has more ECM. To balance Streaks they need to spread damage over all location and not as it's now to torso locations only

This post doesn't make any sense.

I mean, yeah, I get it.. you hate ECM, and think that only streaks can hit light mechs. You're incorrect here, but I understand that many believe this to be the case.

But then you want to buff lasers to do all their damage to a single section? How exactly does that have anything to do with ECM?

[shadowrwolf]

stop crying.
i hated ECM when it first patched, then i played a commando.
EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY 1 COMMANDO TO LEARN HOW TO USE ECM

now it dose not bother me that bad on my HBK or other frames, i even use LRMs still, it just requires i team up with 1 or 2 ECM boats to counter or a few friends with tag.

take the time to learn how to play before you start youre bitching

[Tachykard]

Shark Bait, on 10 December 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

So I've been playing ECM a lot (and who hasnt)... I mean really there simply is no other mech of choice. If you dont have ECM on your team you lose. (Talking Pugs here)....

Unfortunately I have to say that it really shouldnt have been implemented. It was by far the biggest game changer over the last 6 months or so and while I have had an extreme amount of fun with it, especially if I can get a buddy to run with me who has it too... It really should never have happened. Two 3L's rule the day... Three 3L's are even more fun, Four 3L's are Evangelical, Five are Fantastic etc.. you get the point.

So whats next, CECM? (Counter ECM)... oh wait.. we could have CCECM... or maybe CCCECM... or CCCCECM.... pretty soon we would all be running 90 ton mechs loaded with CCCCCCCCCCECM and a medium pulse laser. That would be "Awesome" (was that a pun? Oh snap.)

ECM worked great on the board game... here it doesnt translate well. Believe me I love it! I am having a blast with it and pity those that are not running a 3L.. But once everyone catches on then what?

Anyway... there is my 1 cent worth of nothing.

You are absolutely right! I dont wanna play a ecm noob mech... So if they dont make a big change game and balance is dead!

Edited by Tachykard, 11 December 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Tachykard, on 11 December 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

You are absolutely right! I dont wanna play a ecm noob mech... So if they dont make a big change game and balance is dead!

Again with the doom and gloom.

1. You are not required to play an ECM mech if you don't want. Other mechs are still just as viable. If you are an LRM boater, you will have to shift your thinking a bit. I know it is hard, but I'm sure you can do it. Ballistics and energy weapons work just like they did before. You might have to shift to infrared ('H' on the default keyboard layout) to see them, but they are still there...

2. This game isn't going anywhere. And on an interesting side note - neither are you. My crystal ball is better than yours.

3. Add constructive criticisms - otherwise you are just trolling.

[AlanEsh]

ECM stacking is ********. That's my only beef with the system. -that- is what is causing teams to field ridiculous numbers of ECM equipped mechs.

[Willie Sauerland]

Angelicon, on 11 December 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

ECM stacking is ********. That's my only beef with the system. -that- is what is causing teams to field ridiculous numbers of ECM equipped mechs.

I agree 100%. Doing this to simply nerf 1 chassis is simply ridiculous.

[Marj]

Roland, on 10 December 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

I mean, yeah, I get it.. you hate ECM, and think that only streaks can hit light mechs. You're incorrect here, but I understand that many believe this to be the case.

With a 300 ping streaks are the only thing that can hit a circling light consistently enough to be useful. Some of us live outside America.

[Elder Thorn]

Korm, on 10 December 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

Personally I think it's a better idea to give streaks "dumbfire" mode rather than letting them lock on a target. Do you want streakcats back? even 50% hitting chance is enough for them to slaughter any non-atlas ECM carry.

so you mean like... SRM 2?
Lock On is what makes Streaks Streaks, countering that lock is what makes ECM ECM, staying out of 180 meters is what makes a good Streaker a good Streaker.

oh and OP:
we allready have ECCM, press 'j'

[focuspark]

ECM makes me feel so good. I regularly top the damage output for my team because I can actually things without needing a lock on. While I agree ECM is too powerful and needs to be balanced, I kinda like it the way it is now.

[Senach]

Well, this is an argument on the internets, so no one is going to be convinced by the words of any other person, but... On a strictly heuristic basis, in my limited experience of about 60 matches, if one team has ECM and the other team does not, the ECM team wins. 100% of the time. If both teams have ECM the team with more ECM /tends/ to win. You can argue sampling error, or revenge effects (ECM armed mechs imply more experienced players, for instance), but the statistic is still there, and it seems pretty damning.

As for fixes? I don't claim to be a MW guru or purist, per se.

Modifying ECM is an option.
Creating more effective counters for ECM is an option (or making ECM more widely available).
Changing the matchmaking algorithm to balance ECM mechs is an option.
Perhaps other options could be found as well.

Personally, I do feel something should be done.

+1
I guess is the vernacular

[Theodor Kling]

ECM is fine. Balancing can, and of course should, be open to discission. But the principle works. And if you already whine about ECM... what do you do once and if mag sensors come( hurray for targeting without LOS)? Seismic? Infernos? Thunnder LRM? Arrov IV and all the fancy ammo for it? swarm LRMs? A choice between slug and shot for LB-X ACs? The command console?
Each and every one of them would change the game, and some quite drasticly. So far life was easy(er) for LRMs and streak cats. But now things changed. Things got more complex with ECM. And that is good. Else we could have just stayed with Quake III or UT ( apart from teh mech coolnes factor that is)
And consider: with ECm being as powerfull as it is, mechs having it become prime targets. And no, they are not impossible to shoot down. just aim properly and a light goes down in 2-3 salvos. happend to me in my ECM COM-2D... A mixed missile cat suprised my by actually sending a pack of 12 SRMs into me twice , despite me varying my speed between 100 and 135.8 kph to shake his aim.

Edited by Theodor Kling, 12 December 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

After a few days of playing on and off...

I have come to the conclusion that ECM really isn't that terribly OP by itself.

However 2 conditions in game make it feel really OP

1. ECM pretty much negated the only hard counter to lag shield light mechs, SSRMs.

2. The maps are tiny.