96 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

The reason Autocannons have always made it into Mechwarrior games as self-reloading cannons just like a moden Tank cannon or a 30mm Autocannon that deal "full power" with each slug is because the Table Top rules say that all the damage from firing an Autocannon gets registered to a single bodypart location. If you fire a bank of 4 medium laserrs and deal 20 damage to your opponent, then it will be 4 seperate 5dmg shots that can hit up to 4 different locations, whereas an AC/20 will deliver 20dmg to one bodypart with no damage spread. LBX-Autocannons can operate as either normal ACs to deliver pointe-damage or they can act as shotguns which will cause spread damage. They were created to mix-things-up, and they are an official TT variant of the AC. Rotary Autocannons (RAC) fire full-sized autocannon slugs repeatedly, but they jam frequently, fire quite slowly compared to a machinegun, and do not cause any spread-damage.

Now, envision a Mechwarrior game where 2 Heavy Mechs are dualing with their "AC/20s." One of them has a standard MechWarrior AC/20 and delivers a lump of lead to his opponent's left torso - that's 20dmg in the LT immediately. The other pilot has outfitted his Mech with an "AC/20 Minigun" that does 20dmg per firing sequence (with the same weapon cycle time as the other AC used by his opponent)... he fires a concentrated burst of small 35mm HE shells and rips a gash across his oponent's entire torso, dealing 6dmg to the Left Torso, 7dmg to the Center Torso, and 7dmg to the Right Torso (for a total of 20dmg)

Can you call that an AC/20? Accorting to the BattleTech rules: No, it doesn't deliver damage to 1 place.
Can you call it an LBX-AC/20? No, it's not a shotgun.
Can you call it a RAC? No, RACs deliver full-power shots with every firing sequence; it would not break the damage down into 6-7-7 for a single "shot."

There is no current BattleTech weapons platform that deals out the harshness from a very-rapid-fire, high-damage Minigun-type weapon.

The game designers at PGI would have to create a "new weapon" if high-powered Gattling Guns were to be included in the autocannon-class of the Mechwarrior arsenal. I already had posted in the past about how MW4:Mercenaries came with several weapons that were non-cannon and how the game designers there tried to balance them out and make them fair additions to the game. How do the people here feel about possibly having the devs go above-and-beyond the Technical Manuals to create MW:O-unique weapons?

If you ever wanted to see a GAU-8/A Avenger Gattling gun mounted on a Mech, here's your chance to speak-out. I think a "GAC/20" firing a burst of 300 rounds that does a total of 20 damage instead of firing a single slug that does 20 damage would be an awesome addition to MechWarior video games, and it would not be any more powerful than an AC/20. I want spread. I want multiple impacts. I want DoT within the duration of time the burst is firing. I want 20dmg per burst with a GAC/20, where a burst is about 100 rounds fired over 2 seconds and the bullets doing 0.2dmg each.

I used the GAU-8/A reference because it's a real-world weapon that people can think of when I say "Gattling AC/20." I don't care about the real-world GAU-8's properties because Mechwarrior is fiction. If they made a GAC/20 then it would fire a stream of short-range slugs that don't outrange an AC/20, and would deal 20 damage across that stream. Not 40, not 60, not up-to 120... just 20 damage per "mystical battletech unit of time." And ya know what? It wouldn't run the riusk of jamming. Yeah, I said it - AC/20's don't jam for no reason. Just keep the firing rate down to 2,1000 rounds per minute and you'll be fine because it fires in computer-controlled bursts to prevent barrel failure.

Now, if you wanted a Gattling Gun that fires up to 4,200 rounds-per minute and can deal 40 damage per firing sequence, then you can get an Ultra GAC/20... but that might jam if you abuse it because we all know that Ultra autocannons can jam.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 May 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Rotary AC/2 and /5; all manner of Ultra ACs act in the multi-shot manner you describe. No need for anything new.

M.B.C.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Major Bill Curtis, on 18 May 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

Rotary AC/2 and /5; all manner of Ultra ACs act in the multi-shot manner you describe. No need for anything new.

M.B.C.

Those just fire single lumps of lead, up to 6 times per firing sequence, as programmed into video games, but they do not work reliably nor do their achieve the kinds of firing rates you associate with a minigun (4,2000 rounds per minute). Also, a RAC/20 would deliver 20 damage with every shot; it would not break the damage down into 6-7-7.

I edited my post to reflect this, thank you.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 May 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Skylarr]

Rotary Autocannon did not come out until 3062

[Toothman]

I'd love a GAU 8. It would overpenetrate any Mech in existance. Of course only I should be allowed to have one. Giving someone else my godlike abilities would ruin the game for ME and as we all know its all about ME.

[JazzySteel]

It looks like the machineguns in game have ramped up their refire rate to compensate for ow hitting power. Its almost a short range minigun.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Toothman, on 18 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I'd love a GAU 8. It would overpenetrate any Mech in existance. Of course only I should be allowed to have one. Giving someone else my godlike abilities would ruin the game for ME and as we all know its all about ME.

Mass Effect did grant you some God Powers, but that's a different thread...

A "GAC/20" firing a burst of 300 rounds that does a total of 20 damage instead of firing a single slug that does 20 damage would be an awesome addition to MechWarior video games, and it would not be any more powerful than an AC/20.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 May 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[WithSilentWings]

I am wondering what MW game you are referring to. All MW2 games, MW3, and MW4 followed "fictional cannon" rather than "tabletop cannon" for the way autocannons function

[Redshift2k5]

In theory one could add different classes of autocannons to reflect the fluff text of both large bore/single barrel/single slug type cannons and smaller bore/multishot autocannons (both are the same in TT values but a sim is very different) or scaled up version of the machinegun(MG/1, MG/2, MG/10 maybe.)

Unfortunately either approach then becomes muddied in that they are not distinct enough from the Ultra and rotary cannons already in canon (although most are not yet in the timeline). AC/5, UAC/5, RAC/5 and a hypothetical GAC/5 is a bit much!

RAC/5 is MWLL certainly feels like a very mean gatling gun, but it's well out of reach at this point in the timeline.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 18 May 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[ice trey]

I think another advantage to having the ACs as single burst is that it would appear lasers actually "Drag" over the surface of the mech, rather than a flash-bulb like laser doing damage only to the initial point of impact. By having the single shot, damage will be more concentrated.

Whether a single shot or a short, rapid burst that all hits the same location, it shouldn't matter unless MWO's team start bringing Mech Rifles (See: modern tank cannons) in as an option. It's supposed to be that modern tank canons aren't effective against 'mechs due to being single-shot guns, but I doubt that the fan-base really cares to go that far into detail, and is simply content with knowing it "Blows stuff up"

Edited by ice trey, 18 May 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Ah, I see what you are saying, although a GAU/8 isn't a "minigun"

At any rate, my vote would still be "no need:" stick with the RACs and the Ultras for similar effect (be careful with the RACs for reliability - short bursts, lad, short bursts!).

Good point on 3062 for the RAC, which is an even better reason not to go this route.

M.B.C.

Edited by Major Bill Curtis, 18 May 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Play MW4 and you'll see firing animations for rapid fire, and you'll see many shell-casings get ejected out the back of the guns, but the damage was single-point and there was only one projectile sent out of the weapn as far as the physics engine was concerned.

Major Bill Curtis, on 18 May 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Ah, I see what you are saying, although a GAU/8 isn't a "minigun"

At any rate, my vote would still be "no need:" stick with the RACs and the Ultras for similar effect (be careful with the RACs for reliability - short bursts, lad, short bursts!).

M.B.C.

How would a UAC or a RAC give a similar effect?! They deal out 2x, 3X, even up to 6X the damage, and I would like to see someone fire an M1A2 Abrams BattleTank cannon in "rapid fire mode" while telling me that's the same effect as a GAU-8/A Gattling gun.

I am talking about an AC/20 variant that does 20 damage, so please keep all comparisons to that level.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 May 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[RedDragon]

Prosperity Park, on 18 May 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

The reason Autocannons have always made it into Mechwarrior games as single-round burst, self-reloading cannons just like a moden Tank cannon

Ehm... what? The only MW game that did this is MW4, IIRC. In MW2 you could fire all your rounds like a MG and MW3 had burst-firing...

And burst-fire doesn't always mean spread-fire. If the burst is short and fast enough, there won't be much spread at all.

[Felicitatem Parco]

RedDragon, on 18 May 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ehm... what? The only MW game that did this is MW4, IIRC. In MW2 you could fire all your rounds like a MG and MW3 had burst-firing...

And burst-fire doesn't always mean spread-fire. If the burst is short and fast enough, there won't be much spread at all.

In MW2 or 3, did each shot generate the full damage of the firing sequence, or did each bullet represent only a fraction of the damage from the firing sequence?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 May 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Prosperity Park, on 18 May 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Play MW4 and you'll see firing animations for rapid fire, and you'll see many shell-casings get ejected out the back of the guns, but the damage was single-point and there was only one projectile sent out of the weapn as far as the physics engine was concerned.


How would a UAC or a RAC give a similar effect?! They deal out 2x, 3X, even up to 6X the damage, and I would like to see someone fire an M1A2 Abrams BattleTank cannon in "rapid fire mode" while telling me that's the same effect as a GAU-8/A Gattling gun.

I am talking about an AC/20 variant that does 20 damage, so please keep all comparisons to that level.

I'm talking in TT-game terms here. A RAC/2 does 2-12 damage; a RAC/5 does 5-30, but closer to 5-20 reliably, so quite similar to an AC/20, really. If I want an actual GAU/8, I'll go fly DCS A-10. I come here for fictional combat robots.

M.B.C.

Edited by Major Bill Curtis, 18 May 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[Banditman]

Prosperity Park, on 18 May 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

The reason Autocannons have always made it into Mechwarrior games as single-round burst,

Primary supposition incorrect.

In MechWarrior II, Autocannons fired in a steady stream, like a heavy machine gun. You had to carry LOTS of ammo because they chewed through it ridiculously fast.

Frankly, I feel that the current implimentation of AC's is better. It's a more strategic way of using the gun.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Major Bill Curtis, on 18 May 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

I'm talking in TT-game terms here. A RAC/2 does 2-12 damage; a RAC/5 does 5-30, but closer to 5-20 reliably, so quite similar to an AC/20, really. If I want an actual GAU/8, I'll go fly DCS A-10. I come here for fictional combat robots.

M.B.C.

RAC5 outranges an AC/20 => comparison invalid.
RAC5 deals less than 50 bullets-per-second => double invalid.

[RedDragon]

Prosperity Park, on 18 May 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

In MW2 or 3, did each shot generate the full damage of the firing sequence, or did each bullet represent only a fraction of the damage from the firing sequence?

The last time I played MW2 was quite a time ago. I don't know how they handled damage in general, but you could empty a whole ton of AC/20 ammo in a long stream ob bullets, doing way over the max damge/shot.
MW3 had different damage values than the TT but one burst of fire had the value of one "shot".

[Josh Davion]

I would, personally, prefer strictly canon-based weaponry. Having "custom weapons" would really break the game, imo.

[Felicitatem Parco]

RedDragon, on 18 May 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

The last time I played MW2 was quite a time ago. I don't know how they handled damage in general, but you could empty a whole ton of AC/20 ammo in a long stream ob bullets, doing way over the max damge/shot.
MW3 had different damage values than the TT but one burst of fire had the value of one "shot".

Max damage/shot for an AC/2 is 2. It sounds like they were using a rapid-fire standard autocannon which is not the point of my post. I was talking about a rapid-fire system that deals a fraction of the damage with each bullet, not a stream of full-powered "shots."