11 replies to this topic

[Willie Sauerland]

Everybody says ECM is overpowered. Well, most everybody as I don't agree but I do say it is implemented incorrectly and believe the ECM debacle is the doing of PGIGPs screwing up other game mechanics. I have taken a slightly different approach to fixing ECM looking at the CBT master rules and canon which should upset just about everybody. So this is what needs to be done to fix ECM (with the fixes in spoilers to make this a bit shorter):

1. Streaks need to be fixed.

Spoiler

Streaks are inherently broken. Streaks are supposed to require a lock, fire with 100% guaranteed hit, and then must reacquire the lock. This is not how streaks are implemented as they will chain fire once a lock has been acquired.

2. LRMs are too tightly grouped.

Spoiler

LRMs are semi-guided munitions as they can be used with TAG. TAG allows the laser-guided munition to have a better (though not guaranteed) chance of hitting the target. They can be indirectly fired with the use of a spotter should the firing mech not have LoS. LRMs are working as intended though the spread seems to be a bit too tight and the damage of the missiles might be too high. Spread the missiles out a bit (and yes, friendly fire isn't - situational awareness is a grand thing) allowing them to cover more area around the mech being launched at. This will reduce the amount of damage taken by LRM boats while providing TAG users a significant boost in damage as more missiles will have the chance to hit. Indirectly fired LRMS should not "turn" to hit their target since they should have a larger area of effect. Using TAG, it is possible some missiles will turn toward a moving target but the rest should have a straight flight path as if they were indirectly fired.

3. Artemis IV needs to be fixed.

Spoiler

Currently, Artemis tightens the LRM spread to ensure more hits. This is false. Artemis IV emits a beam which is the equivalent of a TAG. As such, it should follow the same points laid out above concerning TAG.

4. ECM can then be implemented correctly.

Spoiler

Currently, ECM creates a bubble of protection around a mech carrying an ECM extending out to any friendly mech within 180 meters. Fix the things above and this implementation in the name of balance is no longer necessary. It would only then protect the mech carrying the ECM and no friendly mechs. The disrupting of enemy mechs is working within the rules as no mechs should be able to use targeting data from other mechs within the bubble. There should not be two modes, but only 1 as the ecm does these things. ECM in CBT does not have a counter but can only be removed by incapacitating the mech.

Once ECM is fixed, balancing can be looked at including an ECCM module which would counter the ECM. Though not canon, it would be a possible balancing mechanism which I'm sure people would welcome. Also, perhaps PPC effects can adversely affect ECM toting mechs as well though this is also apparently not canon.

Of course, canon is such a loaded term and so easily ignored but I think in this case, following canon would produce better results and a more satisfied customer base.

I have my flame retardant suit on - let me have it.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 02 January 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[Albert Pike]

Want to know if ECM is Easy mode? Make it only effect the mech with the ECM onboard. Then watch as every mech played in the game is suddnly only the ones that can equip ECM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Carazon, on 02 January 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Want to know if ECM is Easy mode? Make it only effect the mech with the ECM onboard. Then watch as every mech played in the game is suddnly only the ones that can equip ECM.

Did you even read the post?

[DocBach]

Willie Sauerland, on 02 January 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Currently, ECM creates a bubble of protection around a mech carrying an ECM extending out to any friendly mech within 180 meters. Fix the things above and this implementation in the name of balance is no longer necessary. It would only then protect the mech carrying the ECM and no friendly mechs. The disrupting of enemy mechs is working within the rules as no mechs should be able to use targeting data from other mechs within the bubble. There should not be two modes, but only 1 as the ecm does these things. ECM in CBT does not have a counter but can only be removed by incapacitating the mech.

ECM should provide a bubble of protection, it just shouldn't be a bubble of complete and total radar invisibility. ECM does have a counter mode, as well as a ghost target mode in CBT's expanded rulesets such as Maximum Tech and Tactical Operations.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Willie Sauerland]

DocBach, on 02 January 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

ECM should provide a bubble of protection, it just shouldn't be a bubble of complete and total radar invisibility. ECM does have a counter mode, as well as a ghost target mode in CBT's expanded rulesets such as Maximum Tech and Tactical Operations.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

You misunderstand - ECM currently has a 180 meter bubble of protection for friendly mechs. This is not canon. That there is a 180 meter disruption bubble is canon and is accurately portrayed in this implementation.

Removing the bubble of protection will result in the information warfare being fixed as you are desiring.

The idea of ECM countering itself is fine though not in the original rule set which I was using for this thread. Personally, I don't care one way or the other if ECM is capable of countering itself or not.

[Morthaliar]

The ECM so far works fine. However, regarding the ballance issues, each team should have the same amount of ecm carrying mechs. It's generally a game of choice now. It's either your team who has one or more ecms, and the other team has none. Mostly the game is concluded if one team has 4 ecms.

The streaks work perfectly and should not be modified, just as LRMs. If a lock on is kept, the missle will head for it's target.

[Willie Sauerland]

Morthaliar, on 02 January 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The ECM so far works fine. However, regarding the ballance issues, each team should have the same amount of ecm carrying mechs. It's generally a game of choice now. It's either your team who has one or more ecms, and the other team has none. Mostly the game is concluded if one team has 4 ecms.

The streaks work perfectly and should not be modified, just as LRMs. If a lock on is kept, the missle will head for it's target.

I submit for consideration that the streaks do not work perfectly given that is not how they are described in the canon. I also submit for consideration that LRMs do now work perfectly given that is also not how they are described in the canon.

Sure, people will not like the idea of using canon to fix the issues, but then again, if they ignore it completely they will have all sorts of fun balancing the game meaning they will do things like they did with ECM: implement it to nerf one chassis. I think we can both agree this is not a good reason to implement anything.

No, if they want to fix ECM, they need to actually fix the underlying problems.

[DocBach]

Willie Sauerland, on 02 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

You misunderstand - ECM currently has a 180 meter bubble of protection for friendly mechs. This is not canon. That there is a 180 meter disruption bubble is canon and is accurately portrayed in this implementation.

Removing the bubble of protection will result in the information warfare being fixed as you are desiring.

The idea of ECM countering itself is fine though not in the original rule set which I was using for this thread. Personally, I don't care one way or the other if ECM is capable of countering itself or not.

ECM does have a 180 meter bubble of protection which protects against all electronic warfare in the bubble, for the carrying unit and for friendlies. What it doesn't do is make 'Mechs invisible for missile locks or radar detection in the bubble.

[Willie Sauerland]

DocBach, on 02 January 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

ECM does have a 180 meter bubble of protection which protects against all electronic warfare in the bubble, for the carrying unit and for friendlies. What it doesn't do is make 'Mechs invisible for missile locks or radar detection in the bubble.

From the BattleTech Master Rules (Revised Edition) p. 136 (emphasis mine):

Quote

An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a "bubble" around the carrying unit. The ECM's disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM.

There is the source of my information. May I have the source for yours?

It could interrupt spotting which would be a LoS communication of targeting information.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 02 January 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[Davers]

1. The only benefit of 'chainfiring' streaks was the impulse of the missiles. This has been reduced already. Streaks should have a more even distribution of hits. This should have been done from the beginning, unfortunately.

2. Most people thought LRMs were 'fine' before ECM. Their speed would have to be drastically improved if they couldn't follow their targets.

3. In TT Artemis gave a +2 bonus on the 'cluster' table, meaning that more missiles would hit than LRMs fired without Artemis. This seems to have translated to MWO pretty well. Also, remember Artemis was already changed to require LOS to work.

4. How can ECM only protect the mech that carries it, and yet provide a bubble effect?

" It would only then protect the mech carrying the ECM and no friendly mechs. The disrupting of enemy mechs is working within the rules as no mechs should be able to use targeting data from other mechs within the bubble."

I am not sure what you mean by this.

Also, why would we invent more EW equipment, rather than find uses for the existing EW equipment? Does ANYONE use NARC? Shouldn't BAP be more useful?

[DocBach]

Willie Sauerland, on 02 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

From the BattleTech Master Rules (Revised Edition) p. 136 (emphasis mine):



There is the source of my information. May I have the source for yours?

It could interrupt spotting which would be a LoS communication of targeting information.

It doesn't affect friendly units negatively, it has its jamming effect on all electronic warfare devices used in the bubble, meaning it doesn't matter if the enemy is targeting the ECM 'Mech or a friendly in the bubble - it's all defeated if its in the bubble, or through it.

[Rawrshuga]

I agree with Willie on all points with one difference. ECM should not cloak ANYTHING. It's not a radar jammer. It's not a cloaking device. It's not friggin stealth mode. It's an Electronic Counter Measure. It counters active Electronics Warfare. It should counter NARCs. Not sure how'd its supposed to counter laser-designation like TAG, but for game purposes, what the heck, let it. Should it prevent locks at long range? Heck no. Should it prevent steak locks? Maybe, but only if the ECM mech is within 180m and is actively disrupting that mech's sensors. Outside of 180m lock away and fire at will.

Honestly all that needs to be done to rebalance ECM is to get rid of that 'cloak' effect. And I'm saying this as an RVN-3L pilot.

And yeah, steaks and LRMs need to be redone. No permanent locks. You should have to re-lock for each shot. But you should have plenty of time to do what when your weapon's reloading.