29 replies to this topic

[pseudocoder]

JuiceCaboose, on 11 January 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Being an LRM boat myself I would definitely like a fighting chance.

I've got a better idea. Why don't you quit LRM boating and equip some close range weapons?

There's a reason they nerfed LRM boats into oblivion, it's because they have way too much firepower to have "push the win button" effectiveness. In order to bring your damage to bear you and your team have to go to considerable trouble to put yourself in the perfect firing scenario.

180m is a pretty short range, there's no reason you should be able to engage with LRM at a lower range than that. Basically LRMs are effective at long AND medium range, now you want short range too?

The problem with the TT rules solution is that people would get good at using the shotgun effect of short range dumb fired LRM's and it would cause problems that could never arise in TT because the odds of hitting (representing pilot skill and luck) are fixed.

TLDR: I like it the way it is.

[ElLocoMarko]

The weakness isn't in the LRM. It's in the boating of the LRM.
A single task mech should be easy pickings when caught out of its specialty.

Perhaps they will release ECCM and allow us to target nearby lights. Then you could use that Cat-A1 with a more balanced build - say 2 LRM20 and 4 Streaks. That would eat up lights and still have significant artillery potential.

[Karl Marlow]

As I recall there was a rule in TT that allowed you to fire LRMs under minimum range. It was called hot Loading the LRMS. I don't remember what the drawback was other than there was one but it basically removed the penalty to hit inside minimum range.

EDIT: I think the penalty was if you got hit in a torso section, even with armor, that had a hot loaded launcher there was a chance the ammo loaded into it would explode.

EDIT2: On a related topic ther was also a rule to turn off the safety inhibitors on a PPC so you could fire them inside minimum range as well. Teh drawback to it was it had a chance to destroy the PPC and deal 10 points of damage to the location it was mounted. The closer the target you were fireing at was the higher the chance of an explosion.

Edited by ThomasMarik, 14 January 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Valaska, on 13 January 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

ECM is not supposed to counter:

• Targeting beyond C3
  
• Sensors beyond benefits of BAP
  
• SSRM's ability to fire
  
• LRM's ability to fire
  
• Other ECM's
  
• Or do anything beyond its bubble.

So we've pretty much thrown table top into the friggen garbage at this point, the guy is trying to come up with ideas that make a play style he enjoyed actually viable again, it doesn't matter if he is pulling idea's from himself or hell even Armored Core, we're not really in the waters of Table Top anymore.

Actually, G-ECM does affect basic 'Mech sensors:

(scan of table is courtesy of steelblueskies)

As we can see from the "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" (originally from page 223 of Tactical Operations) above, the G-ECM imparts a +5 modifier against detecting a unit while using standard 'Mech sensors and a +4 modifier against against detecting a unit while using BAP.

For comparison:
"To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units."
(Tactical Operations, pg. 222)

At best for the spotting 'Mech, ECM makes it nigh-impossible for a spotting 'Mech with only standard sensors to detect a Guardian-equipped 'Mech outside of short range (which, according to the "Sensor Range Tables" on page 222 of Tactical Operations, is only out to 8 hexes (240 meters) for 'Mech radar) and gives it great difficulty in doing so even at short range, and makes it exceedingly difficult to for a Beagle-equipped spotting 'Mech to detect a Guardian-equipped 'Mech outside of medium range (which, for BAP, is 13-24 hexes (390-720 meters)).

So, yes, sensor-based target acquisition beyond C3 and BAP is affected by ECM for quite a significant distance outside of the 180-meter bubble of its primary and most potent effects.

And with the targeting sensors being so hampered, achieving a missile lock likewise becomes quite difficult - which in turn makes achieving the solid lock required for the Streak system to permit itself to fire an exceptionally difficult task.
That is what is meant when it is said that Guardian doesn't interfere with Streaks - Guardian still allows Streaks to act as they normally do (not firing at all unless and until a solid lock is achieved, thus ensuring that all missiles hit and are not wasted), while Angel negates the advantage of the Streak system (that is, ammo conservation) by allowing Streak launchers to fire when they do not have a solid lock (thus allowing them to miss and the missiles to be wasted).

LRMs (other than the Streak versions developed by the Clans in 3057) can always be dumb-fired (where dumb-firing standard LRMs should not be confused with firing the purpose-built and completely-unguided alternate LRM/SRM munition, Dead-Fire Missiles); ECM dies not affect LRMs' ability to fire, but it would affect their ability to lock onto and subsequently home in on a target.

ECCM capability is described on pages 100 and 224 of Tactical Operations, and is a capability ascribed to all variants of ECM suites (see pg. 100 of TacOps), as well as to Command Consoles (when linked to scientific satellites; see pg. 195 of TacOps) and Communications Equipment (see pgs 100 and 196 of TacOps).
Additionally, page 196 of TacOps states that "if using the ECCM rules (see p. 100), a unit is only blocked if the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is less than the enemy ECM in that hex."

In conclusion: the quoted post from Valaska can be demonstrated to be completely and totally wrong on all counts.

[Bobzilla]

Strum Wealh, on 15 January 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Actually, G-ECM does affect basic 'Mech sensors:

(scan of table is courtesy of steelblueskies)

As we can see from the "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" (originally from page 223 of Tactical Operations) above, the G-ECM imparts a +5 modifier against detecting a unit while using standard 'Mech sensors and a +4 modifier against against detecting a unit while using BAP.

For comparison:
"To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units."
(Tactical Operations, pg. 222)

At best for the spotting 'Mech, ECM makes it nigh-impossible for a spotting 'Mech with only standard sensors to detect a Guardian-equipped 'Mech outside of short range (which, according to the "Sensor Range Tables" on page 222 of Tactical Operations, is only out to 8 hexes (240 meters) for 'Mech radar) and gives it great difficulty in doing so even at short range, and makes it exceedingly difficult to for a Beagle-equipped spotting 'Mech to detect a Guardian-equipped 'Mech outside of medium range (which, for BAP, is 13-24 hexes (390-720 meters)).

So, yes, sensor-based target acquisition beyond C3 and BAP is affected by ECM for quite a significant distance outside of the 180-meter bubble of its primary and most potent effects.

And with the targeting sensors being so hampered, achieving a missile lock likewise becomes quite difficult - which in turn makes achieving the solid lock required for the Streak system to permit itself to fire an exceptionally difficult task.
That is what is meant when it is said that Guardian doesn't interfere with Streaks - Guardian still allows Streaks to act as they normally do (not firing at all unless and until a solid lock is achieved, thus ensuring that all missiles hit and are not wasted), while Angel negates the advantage of the Streak system (that is, ammo conservation) by allowing Streak launchers to fire when they do not have a solid lock (thus allowing them to miss and the missiles to be wasted).

LRMs (other than the Streak versions developed by the Clans in 3057) can always be dumb-fired (where dumb-firing standard LRMs should not be confused with firing the purpose-built and completely-unguided alternate LRM/SRM munition, Dead-Fire Missiles); ECM dies not affect LRMs' ability to fire, but it would affect their ability to lock onto and subsequently home in on a target.

ECCM capability is described on pages 100 and 224 of Tactical Operations, and is a capability ascribed to all variants of ECM suites (see pg. 100 of TacOps), as well as to Command Consoles (when linked to scientific satellites; see pg. 195 of TacOps) and Communications Equipment (see pgs 100 and 196 of TacOps).
Additionally, page 196 of TacOps states that "if using the ECCM rules (see p. 100), a unit is only blocked if the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is less than the enemy ECM in that hex."

In conclusion: the quoted post from Valaska can be demonstrated to be completely and totally wrong on all counts.

I haven't seen a book in almost 20ish years so explain.

So your saying that a mech standing 10 meters in front of another mech, with no ECM, won't be detected on a roll of 9-12? (that would be really stupid) Or is this ment if its not in LOS?

Are you sure those aren't to hit modifirers in the table?

So what happens if, altho 'nigh-impossible', it does detect that mech?
It's detected and missles can lock on and fire? cause a 1-4 at short range is still a lock 1/3 of the time with SSRM's and regular sensors.

Edited by Bobzilla, 15 January 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Bobzilla, on 15 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

I haven't seen a book in almost 20ish years so explain.

So your saying that a mech standing 10 meters in front of another mech, with no ECM, won't be detected on a roll of 9-12? (that would be really stupid) Or is this ment if its not in LOS?

Are you sure those aren't to hit modifirers in the table?

So what happens if, altho 'nigh-impossible', it does detect that mech?
It's detected and missles can lock on and fire? cause a 1-4 at short range is still a lock 1/3 of the time with SSRM's and regular sensors.

Well, the whole paragraph, from pg. 222 of TacOps, is as follows:
"The ranges of various electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table, p. 222. To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. Remember that a spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, which is declared to the gamemaster at the start of the turn (see p. Initiative Phase, p. 221)."

The Sensor Range Table (again, courtesy of clearblueskies):


Also, from the ECM/Stealth section on pg. 224 of TacOps:
"In the double-blind game, all ECM and stealth systems modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM/stealth systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit’s probe/sensor and the enemy unit’s ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table. Once the sensor detection dice roll has been made (including adding any bonus modifiers from the controlling player’s side), the player consults the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table and adds the applicable modifier to the roll result.
To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems."

Guardian adds 5 to the roll result of the "sensor check"/"sensor detection dice roll" versus the standard-issue 'Mech sensors (while, by contrast, the more-powerful-and-flexible Angel adds 6 to the same roll).
Thus, even a roll of 2 against a Guardian-equipped target becomes a result of 7 (detection only at short range) and a roll of 3 becomes a result of 8 (detection only at short range), while a roll of 4 becomes a result of 9 (failure to detect) against the same target.
Looking at 2D6 probabilities, the combined probability of rolling either a 2 or a 3 is on the order of 8.4%... which means there is a roughly 91.6% chance of completely failing to get a sensor pick-up on an ECM-carrier while using standard-issue 'Mech sensors.
And, of course, if the 'Mech can't "see" the target, getting a missile lock on said target is quite difficult, if not effectively out-of-the-question.
Though, that wouldn't necessarily stop the pilot from observing the target with the good 'ole Mark 0 Model 1 and using either dumb-fire or direct-fire weapons.

So, yeah... MWO's rendition of (Guardian) ECM is quite potent, but that is likely due in no small part to the TT version being, itself, quite potent and the Devs' desire to stay closer to the TT feel and ruleset than previous MW games.

[Roadbuster]

While I agree that we need a better counter for ECM, I think LRMs are still quite fine.
When pugging and not under ECM effect it's raining lrms down on you like no tomorrow.

For a first step I'd allow TAG to work even if you are effected by ECM. That means, no minimum range for TAG inside ECM bubble.
If you only have LRMs, you better get someone to look out for you. That's the drawback of LRMs. You can deal massive ammounts of damage over a long range while standing behind cover. But if you want to defend yourself against at close range, you will have to either spend some of your missile hardpoints for short range missile systems or use a mech variant that offers the hardpoints to equip some backup weapons.

EDIT:
Sigh...when will people finally realize that you can't always use TT rules and values for this game?
You don't throw the dice everytime you want to fire a laser, do you?

Edited by Roadbuster, 15 January 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Roadbuster, on 15 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Sigh...when will people finally realize that you can't always use TT rules and values for this game?
You don't throw the dice everytime you want to fire a laser, do you?

The Devs themselves had stated at the outset that they're starting with the TT rules and values for each element of the game, and then making adjustments to better suit the real-time gameplay environment.

Ergo, the obvious solution to wanting to know "why did the Devs choose to implement X, and why does item Y perform ability/task Z in this manner" is to:
I.) ask them, and/or
II.) go back to the source material (BattleTech rules/canon) and reverse-engineer their decisions using that material.

[Bobzilla]

Strum Wealh, on 15 January 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Well, the whole paragraph, from pg. 222 of TacOps, is as follows:
"The ranges of various electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table, p. 222. To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. Remember that a spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, which is declared to the gamemaster at the start of the turn (see p. Initiative Phase, p. 221)."

The Sensor Range Table (again, courtesy of clearblueskies):


Also, from the ECM/Stealth section on pg. 224 of TacOps:
"In the double-blind game, all ECM and stealth systems modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM/stealth systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit’s probe/sensor and the enemy unit’s ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table. Once the sensor detection dice roll has been made (including adding any bonus modifiers from the controlling player’s side), the player consults the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table and adds the applicable modifier to the roll result.
To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems."

Guardian adds 5 to the roll result of the "sensor check"/"sensor detection dice roll" versus the standard-issue 'Mech sensors (while, by contrast, the more-powerful-and-flexible Angel adds 6 to the same roll).
Thus, even a roll of 2 against a Guardian-equipped target becomes a result of 7 (detection only at short range) and a roll of 3 becomes a result of 8 (detection only at short range), while a roll of 4 becomes a result of 9 (failure to detect) against the same target.
Looking at 2D6 probabilities, the combined probability of rolling either a 2 or a 3 is on the order of 8.4%... which means there is a roughly 91.6% chance of completely failing to get a sensor pick-up on an ECM-carrier while using standard-issue 'Mech sensors.
And, of course, if the 'Mech can't "see" the target, getting a missile lock on said target is quite difficult, if not effectively out-of-the-question.
Though, that wouldn't necessarily stop the pilot from observing the target with the good 'ole Mark 0 Model 1 and using either dumb-fire or direct-fire weapons.

So, yeah... MWO's rendition of (Guardian) ECM is quite potent, but that is likely due in no small part to the TT version being, itself, quite potent and the Devs' desire to stay closer to the TT feel and ruleset than previous MW games.

To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment).

See that first part I bolded and underlined? That means ECM/stealth has to be 180m or less from a spotter to affect it.
See that second part i bolded and underlined? That means if you don't have ECM equiped you gain no benifit from it.

This is what needs to be nerfed with ECM.
ECM in mwo is much more potent than TT because they didn't follow the TT rules.

[Strum Wealh]

Bobzilla, on 16 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment).

See that first part I bolded and underlined? That means ECM/stealth has to be 180m or less from a spotter to affect it.
See that second part i bolded and underlined? That means if you don't have ECM equiped you gain no benifit from it.

This is what needs to be nerfed with ECM.
ECM in mwo is much more potent than TT because they didn't follow the TT rules.

Actually, those two points are covered by the basic rules presented in Total Warfare ("TW", which has since 2006 supplanted CBT Master Rules as the current official BattleTech ruleset), as opposed to the (supplementary) advanced rules in TacOps (which is a companion book to TW).

Specifically:

• "An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM." (TW, pg. 134)
  
• "In the ECM diagram, the ’Mech in Hex A on the Open Terrain #1 map is equipped with an ECM suite, which has an effect radius of six hexes (shown as the shaded area). The suite affects any enemy unit in this area or any enemy LOS traced through it. The ’Mech in Hex B is affected because it falls inside the effect radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be affected because LOS passes through the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex E would not be affected because LOS does not pass through the radius." (TW, pgs. 134-135)

(The ECM Diagram is on page 135 of Total Warfare (which is viewable online here; be sure to use the page numbers that actually appear on the pages, rather than the ones that appear on the toolbar); an identical diagram can be found on page 136 of the CBT Master Rules (product codes 10984 and 35000).)

All "ECM equipment" (Guardian ECM and its unbranded Clan-built counterpart, Angel ECM, the Capellan-built Electronic Warfare Equipment (introduced in 3025; described on pgs 310-311 of TacOps) and the Clan-built Watchdog Composite Electronic Warfare System (introduced as prototypes in 3059, never put into full-scale production; described on pg 278 of TacOps)) has an effect-radius/"bubble" (90 meters for EWE, 180 meters for all of the others).

By contrast, the "stealth systems" (Chameleon Light Polarization Shield (Predator-style optic camoflage (but not as good), for 'Mechs), Null Signature System (heat and electronic emissions masking), Stealth Armor (heat and electronic emissions masking; attempt to replicate the LosTech NullSig), Mimetic Armor (cuttlefish-style optic camoflage, for Battle Armor only), and Void Signature System (NullSig + CLPS)) do not have an effect-radius/"bubble"; those systems won't cover an area like the ECM equipment does (so hanging out nect to a friendly with a CLPS or NullSig won't benefit an unequipped 'Mech, as would be the case with ECM).

More to the point, back to the ECM Diagram:
Of particular note is the situation between the 'Mech in Hex C ("'Mech C") and the vehicle in Hex D ("Vehicle D").

• The rules quoted above indicate that ECM will affect any line-of-sight (which does count for both sensors and weapons) that passes through the bubble. As such, Mech C's action (be it either a sensor ping or weapon fire) is still affected by the ECM field, even though neither 'Mech C nor its target (Vehicle D) are physically within the bubble.
  
• Likewise, if 'Mech C were to turn to attack the ECM-carrier ("'Mech A"), the same thing would happen - the LOS for 'Mech C's action would necessarily have to come into contact with the ECM field to get to 'Mech A, so 'Mech C's action (be it either a sensor ping or weapon fire) is still affected by the ECM field despite 'Mech C itself still being physically outside of the bubble.
  
• Additionally, if 'Mech(?) B were to try to attack either Vehicle D or 'Mech(?) E, the same would be true - the LOS for 'Mech B's action would necessarily have to come into contact with the ECM field to get out to Vehicle D or 'Mech E, so 'Mech B's action (be it either a sensor ping or weapon fire) is still affected by the ECM field despite 'Mech B's target(s) being physically outside of the bubble.
  
• If and only if there is absolutely no contact between the line of sight and an ECM bubble (as would be the case between 'Mech C and 'Mech E) is there no effect on either/any of the units in question.

And that is just the basic, bare-bones rule set for ECM (used to facilitate shorter battle/game sessions); the advanced rules from TacOps are added on top of that to provide a longer, more-complex, more "flavorful" game with more options for the players.

So, yes: Between the basic rules in TW and the advanced rules in TacOps, the TT version of ECM is indeed that capable and that potent... and potency of MWO's implementation of ECM is due in large part to being a generally-faithful rendition done in general accordance with BattleTech's gameplay rules.