47 replies to this topic

[Sayyid]

Cluster rounds should not be treated like a shotgun "00" buck round. But like a 8.8cm FlaK round.

It should be a solid round till it gets near the target then burst into fragments causing the damage to spread out. This would mean the LB-10X cluster round will be useful at any range not just close range.

Edited by Sayyid, 18 January 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[Billygoat]

While according to BT lore, this is correct, I can only imagine the ways in which this would fail as a mechanic with the way you have to fire with ballistics in this game. The amount you have to lead a target (thus targeting the ground in the distance beyond them according to the rangefinder) would make this nearly impossible to use if the LBX worked this way.

At least without a major overhaul of the way targeting works in MWO.

[Herbstwind]

usability on all ranges would not be much of a problem if we could switch the firing mode of the lb-10x (or all other lbx versions, once the clans invade). Imagine : 2 tons of cluster ammo for brawling and 1 ton of slug ammo for sniping - just switch to your liking. But for for now one of the most versatile weapons of BT is a mere shotgun. Hopefully this gets changed at some point.

[Reverendk]

Now that I think about it, how great would it be if any mech you hit would take 1 damage point if struck by the giant shot cup?


The answer is pretty damn great.

[Trauglodyte]

Great idea and one that I"ve pushed for in other games. But, as mentioned in post #2, it would be near impossible to implement properly considering how you have to lead targets thereby screwing with the flak coding.

[SuperNobody]

I think it's fine the way it is.

Friendly fire would be an issue if there were several mechs around the one you are targeting when the round bursts. Not to mention it would be hard to maintain a constant damage from an expanding sphere of projectiles vs a directed cone. Would they have to code that anyone within a certain range of the burst receives full 10 damage?

[Pr8Dator]

How about we want both kinds of rounds?

[Jacmac]

Billygoat, on 18 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

While according to BT lore, this is correct, I can only imagine the ways in which this would fail as a mechanic with the way you have to fire with ballistics in this game. The amount you have to lead a target (thus targeting the ground in the distance beyond them according to the rangefinder) would make this nearly impossible to use if the LBX worked this way.

At least without a major overhaul of the way targeting works in MWO.

It wouldn't be all that bad actually. The round could be fired using the last target range information that was recorded. So if you led the target, the detonation would occur based on that last range. it would require being careful, but it shouldn't require manually setting a range or anything like that. Another option would be to simply make it a proximity fuse, so the round would explode as soon as it got within a certain distance from any target.

[FrostPaw]

Billygoat, on 18 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

While according to BT lore, this is correct, I can only imagine the ways in which this would fail as a mechanic with the way you have to fire with ballistics in this game. The amount you have to lead a target (thus targeting the ground in the distance beyond them according to the rangefinder) would make this nearly impossible to use if the LBX worked this way.

At least without a major overhaul of the way targeting works in MWO.

Agreed, leading a target to hit means your round wouldn't know when it was supposed to "explode" into shrapnel.

There is intention to add slug ammo type to the LBX, this will give LBX usage some options when engaging at range. Although I wonder how that would differentiate it from an AC10 or 20

[Odanan]

If they make the "shogun" pellets to almost do not spread, the weapon could be useful at any range.

PS: adding the option for regular ammo to the LBX/10 is wrong because the LBX/10 is better than the AC/10 in all stats (weight, crits and range), and it would make the AC/10 obsolete.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Sayyid, on 18 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Cluster rounds should not be treated like a shotgun "00" buck round. But like a 8.8cm FlaK round.

It should be a solid round till it gets near the target then burst into fragments causing the damage to spread out. This would mean the LB-10X cluster round will be useful at any range not just close range.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Flak-projectiles of mentioned 8.8 must be set to a certain distance or height at which they explode / cluster. Even modern bullets cannot determine their distance to the desired target and cluster in the right moment, unless they are rockets.

[blood4blood]

LBX10 works fine as-is IMHO. Sure, ammo type options would be nice, but they're not necessary - the LBX already fills a unique niche for ballistics.

[Strum Wealh]

The "shotgun" implementation is actually the correct, canonical implementation.

LB-X ACs were always described as "BattleMech-scale shotguns", with the cluster munitions being consistently represented as shotshell rounds (which fragment immediately upon leaving the weapon's barrel) rather than proximity-detonation "Shrapnel shell" rounds (so named after its inventor, an English artillery officer named Henry Shrapnel), the latter of which most people tend to (incorrectly) refer to as "flak rounds" (also, "flak" is actually a role rather than any particular type of shell; it is an acronym that comes from the German term "flieger abwehr kanone", meaning "Flyer Defense Cannon" or "Airplane/Aeroplane Defense Cannon") and/or confuse with actual canister shot rounds (which, as it happens and somewhat ironically, actually operate in a manner closer to shotshells than Shrapnel shells).

LB-X ACs are also specifically described as smoothbore weapons (TechManual, pg. 207; "These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons."), a descriptor that is used in such a way as to indicate contrast with other AC types... and one which is significant specifically because rifled barrels, due to the effect rifling has on spread, are generally unsuitable for firing shotshells, an issue that would not exist with Shrapnel shells.

Additionally, the CBT Master Rules (Revised Edition, #10984) specifically states (on page 132), "The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller sub-munitions."
The description indicates that the cluster munitions fragment "when fired", as opposed to "when the shell is within X meters of the target", further supporting the "cluster rounds as shotshells" LB-X model.

Moreover, many (if not all) of the novels in which they appear specifically refer to LB-X ACs and their specialty shells as "'Mech-sized shotguns", "glorified shotguns", and so on.

In conclusion: TT/canon LB-X cluster ammo was always intended to be a shotshell and is consistently described in a manner indicating such (as opposed to being a Shrapnel shell), and MWO's implementation of LB-X cluster ammo as shotshells is consistent with BT canon and therefore correct.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Idk why people are saying they are fine. The spread shotgun round is pretty horrible. If you're blind to see that then there is something wrong with you.

[LaserAngel]

I just want slugs and other ammunition options.

[Lukoi Banacek]

GODzillaGSPB, on 18 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong: Flak-projectiles of mentioned 8.8 must be set to a certain distance or height at which they explode / cluster. Even modern bullets cannot determine their distance to the desired target and cluster in the right moment, unless they are rockets.

Are you talking about something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25_CDTE -- if we can do it with small weapons I'm sure we can do it with bigger ones in MWO.

[John MatriX82]

Sayyid, on 18 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Cluster rounds should not be treated like a shotgun "00" buck round. But like a 8.8cm FlaK round.

It should be a solid round till it gets near the target then burst into fragments causing the damage to spread out. This would mean the LB-10X cluster round will be useful at any range not just close range.

+1 but I'd still like to retain the possibility to chose between this and the buckshot-like round.

[Darkmoose]

Is implementing a VT Fuse that difficult. I can build one easy enough, how hard is it to program, and how would you stop it from triggering on any mech that was nearby and not just your target.

[stjobe]

GODzillaGSPB, on 18 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Even modern bullets cannot determine their distance to the desired target and cluster in the right moment, unless they are rockets.

The Bofors 3P line of ammunition would like to have a word with you.

[Sybreed]

blood4blood, on 18 January 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

LBX10 works fine as-is IMHO. Sure, ammo type options would be nice, but they're not necessary - the LBX already fills a unique niche for ballistics.

my problem is that its max range is listed as 450M, while actually over 200M it's completely useless. Clusters spread so wide, you'll deal 4-5 dmg per shot.