13 replies to this topic

[Alphonz]

Most of us agree that ECM is broken, but instead of simply complaining about how OP it is, we need to come up with a solution to the problem. Here are my suggestions, please reply with your own gripes, critiques, etc.

Suggested changes:

Possibility 1:
-reduce size to one slot
-create one module for each effect (i.e. missile lock jamming, target distance reduction, jamming of information sharing)
-Some modules might take up two slots, depending on what needs to be nerfed/buffed.

Possibility 2:
-separate modules for disruption and counter functions, forcing a choice between the two.

Either of these changes would create different roles for each module, allowing each mech to specialize to fit their role.

For example, an LRM boat would fit a ECCM module, preventing a single mech from jamming its missile locks, but having no other functionality. An Atlas might fit a target distance reduction module in order to shelter the mechs following it from LRM locks. Scouts might fit a information sharing jammer, essentially hiding itself from every enemy without a line of sight.

This would mean that a team of ecm ravens would no longer be able to peck an entire team to death, because they would no longer have the entire ECM suite fit to each individual mech.

Hopefully this post brings some new ideas to the table or sparks some new ones.

[Lytharan]

Same idea ? : http://mwomercs.com/...e-design-ideas/

[Alphonz]

Pretty close, but the post covers more than one problem, so it will get suggestions for all of them. Ideally, I'd like this to be a thread where everyone posts their suggestions about how to fix ECM so we can get them all in one place for the devs to (hopefully) read. Heat mechanics and Mech variant balancing can have their own thread, no disrespect intended.

[Theobald Hauser]

Herm... Still the same idea.

Edited by Amarius, 22 January 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[Agent CraZy DiP]

ECM Really isn't broken. What's broken is when you're an LRM Heavy team and they have 5 ECMs and you have 0. That's happened to me several times. The LRM Team gets ROFL-STOMPED every time. They need to include ECM into the matchmaker definitions. Make it so there's 3 or less per-side and keep it on a 1 per 1 ratio.

[Hubis]

The only real problem with ECM right now is that

• ECM Blocks Streaks
  
• Streaks are very effective at killing lights because of their tracking and concentrated damage (and not bad at killing other things either)
  
• Netcode makes killing lights with direct-fire weapons very difficult/bad

So the result is that if you have ECM, you're pretty hard for the enemy to kill unless they can counter it. If you don't have more ECM than the enemy, then they can streak you down pretty quickly. So the metagame ends up pushing you towards just having more ECM and Streaks.

A better solution would be to

• Improve the netcode (which PGI is doing and will hopefully come in soon)
  
• Change Counter so that you have to have Counter > Jamming rather than Counter = Jamming

This sounds like an ECM buff, but the truth is that ECM isn't really the problem -- streaks are. To prove this, consider how big of a problem Ravens are versus Cicadas. They both have close to the same achievable speed, but the streaks mean that the Ravens can kill the other team's lights if they have enough of them, and then just run wild all over what remains. So, by requiring you to have more ECM than the enemy, you nerf ECM+Streak builds.

In the current metagame, 2xRaven would always beat 1xRaven+1xCicada because they could just counter ECM, focus-fire the Raven, and then mop up the Cicada at will. With a Cicada who's a good shot they might lose one, but that's it. If you changed ECM as suggested above, then the Ravens would suddenly lose a large portion of their damage in that pairing, and the Cicada would push the 1xRaven+1xCicada team to victory.

The interesting part is that if you disincentivize streaks like this, a lot of other builds become viable once again. The 1xRaven+1xCicada team would actually probably lose to 2xCicada, because they've got more effective firepower; however, because the Cicada is larger/slower, they would probably lose to 1xCicada+1xJR7-F, or 2xJR7-F/D/K, or even some combination of Jenners/non-ECM Ravens. Of course, those would all be defeated by a combination of ECM+Streak builds like the COM-2D or RVN-3L again. What you'd end up with is a very dynamic and circular metagame, instead of one that is linear with positive reinforcement of the importance of ECM.

The only caveat here is that this definitely hinges on the improved netcode making direct-fire weapons effective against fast-moving mechs again.

Edited by Hubis, 22 January 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[Agent CraZy DiP]

I'll agree with Hubis, that's very well put together. Netcode is the main issue since streaks are really the only "effective" way of killing lag shield lights. I've become so adept at leading the target with my lasers I don't know what I'm going to do when they fix it.

[Hubis]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 22 January 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I'll agree with Hubis, that's very well put together. Netcode is the main issue since streaks are really the only "effective" way of killing lag shield lights. I've become so adept at leading the target with my lasers I don't know what I'm going to do when they fix it.

Wait until Knockdown comes back, and then build a throne of skulls from all the light "aces" who never played in Closed Beta and aren't used to actually piloting their mechs at high speed rather than just mashing W

[Agent CraZy DiP]

I can't wait... *EVIL GRIN*

[CptBilsn]

I know it is stupid to quote myself but its probably easier than to linking on another topic.

CptBilsn, on 22 January 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

I think that good solution would be if NARC beacon broke ECM cover - but only for close range, say 90-100 m and only for single unit that is NARCed . I am aware that Guardian ECM is specifically told to counter NARC but this function would be maintained, units outside ECM bubble would still not get target lock from NARC alone (thats what TAG is for), but units in point blank range would get their target info (NARC is after all powerful transmitter so it kinda stands for reason that it can still function on very limited distance even if it is jammed).

This way, we would get some use for currently under-performing NARC beacon, get some solution for point blank knife fights with groups of ECM Ravens (yes Commandos too, although they are not that bad) and there would not be need to add another new piece of equipment.

IMHO this would make NARC viable equipment, as now there is little reason to choose it over TAG and it would make ECM lights vulnerable to SSRMs. Light pilot would then have a choice to disengage and wait for NARC to wear out or risk getting streaked.

(Oh and just a side note, I do play Commando 2-D as electronic-warfare support with TAG, ECM and SSRMs providing cover for other mechs, fending off lights and painting ecm-covered target, witch is IMHO way as light with ecm should be played)

[tayhimself]

I like Hubis' suggestions. I'd like to add a few ways that could help reduce the ungodly powerfulness of ECM+Streak+speed.

• Within 180m and in line of sight, ECM could last for 5 seconds before it got "compormised" and the enemy could target you. This would mean that ECM Ravens that run around with impunity could be targeted by any mech that had SSRMs if they start their traditional circling shooting auto-aim missilles at will. They could still use ECM for hit and run which is how it should be used.
  
• Any Mech with an ECM in Disrupt mode would not be able to load it's own SSRM's. Thus you'd have to switch to "Counter" mode or turn ECM off to load SSRMs. It is conceivable to imagine a high ECM load interferes with SSRMs (like how ipad words with friends interferes with the FAA flight safety lol).

Thoughts?

[CptBilsn]

To be honest I think your own (or lance-mates) ECM suit shouldn't interfere with your own sensors - it kinda defeats the purpose of electronic warfare (i think ECM is suppose to be tuned so it leaves your specific frequency set intact - or your on-board communication equipment is tuned to it cancel your own ECM, which extends to any on-board weapons). But I would agree that other mechs could adapt after some time so your ECM cover would decay and you - and your lance-mates under effect of your ECM will become targetable again (and enemy lance will retain the ability to communicate again), then you would have to remodulate your ECM (which would take some time) for it to be effective again - this is viable way (although I would personally prefer the countering way as I wrote in my previous post )

Also, there is IMHO no reason for not being able to target ECM disrupted target if it is in point blank range and in your direct line of sight. All right, I get the inability of sensors to maintain lock-on target as soon as it moves out of direct line of sight, but not while you can clearly see it (hell even some digital cameras nowadays can maintain lock on selected target via direct visual means)

[Agent CraZy DiP]

Does having 2 ECMs on the same team Cancel each other out if one is on Jamming and one on Counter? Cause it should. If one guy on either team has it on ECM Counter then all ECM's in range should be negated regardless of the team. Does anyone know the answer to this?

[CptBilsn]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 22 January 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Does having 2 ECMs on the same team Cancel each other out if one is on Jamming and one on Counter? Cause it should. If one guy on either team has it on ECM Counter then all ECM's in range should be negated regardless of the team. Does anyone know the answer to this?

As far as I know, they don't cancel. And should they? It would need us to go fairly technical. I really don't know how how Mech sensors work. I would expect them to actually be array of detection devices (IR scanners, radars, laser and so on) connected to on-board computer system that evaluates incoming data and interprets them for pilot so ECM suit would need to be entire battery of devices to counter all of them (thats why it is called ECM suite, not just radar jammer) by generating white noise or ghost images for radar, false sources of IR (http://en.wikipedia...._countermeasure) on so on . So, and it is pure speculation from my side, ECM set so counter would not actually be generating any signal at all but would try to detect these false images and white noises and compensate for them. And I would also expect that friendly ECM suites do not compete but working together - which they do currently in-game as you need one ECM set to counter for each one which is set to disrupt. Have in mind that every piece of equipment here is all about military application of information warfare.

TL;DR version, from technical point of view there is (probably) no reason friendly ECM suites should disrupt each other (it's not only about radar, you know) - I would even go so far as to expect they complement each other (which they do currently in game).

It is not an issue though, the issue is that there is no real way to counter ECM on close range (except for being ECM capable too)