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[Idea] Streaks And Proportional Navigation


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#1 Hobietime

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:08 AM

Warning: Incoming wall of text.

I have been seeing (and feeling) the pain of streak ssrms for quite some time and have head many call for balance; usually in the form of damage reduction or target lock increases.

Although these ideas would certainly reduce the effectiveness of streaks, they would still be criticized as "win buttons" that require no skill to shoot and don't allow for any sort of dodge since they always hit.

This may be canon, but doesn't translate well in a video game.

I would argue that the problem isn't damage or lock time. It is due to the fact that these missiles move too fast and have an astounding turn radius. Everyone has seen a raven point the other way and drop a couple of streaks into your side.

An increase in turn radius and perhaps even a reduction in speed would be great, except that now then none of the streaks could hit anything traveling faster than a heavy. This is because the current streaks use pure pursuit guidance.

Here is a quick video showing what I mean:

Spoiler


See how the missiles have to curve more and more to keep up with the mech? (I also suspect the reason for the crazy ragdoll to be caused by the extreme acceleration of the streaks as they change direction)

This is because the streaks point at a mech, not where it is going to be. After every time step the missile makes a course correction to point at the target again.

Here is a picture of what I mean, illustrated by the almighty blahdy:

Spoiler


Now what you are seeing in the second half of that picture is lead pursuit guidance, also known a proportional navigation. Missiles point where the target is going, not where the target currently is. It would be like shooting without leading your target.

As you can see in the diagram, most missiles only violently maneuver during the first fraction of a second. Afterward. their ability to change course is limited. If we had something like this modeled in-game, I would probably make the maneuverability of the missile a function of time, dropping off after the first quarter second.

It is true that it would probably easiest to implement with the velocity vector and the distance from the missile to the mech then solve for a vector that forms a right triangle with a bit of integration. But that is probably too taxing on both the cpu and that poor dev who will have to break out the old calculus textbook again. Instead, you could use an algorithm similar to what is used in real life:

Find the angle and angular velocity of the target. If the angular velocity is positive, mirror the angle of the mech across the missile's Z axis. If not, use your original angle. Then, instead of pointing the nose directly at the mech, attempt to maintain this new angle with the mech. Assuming that the target is less than 90 degrees from the Z axis the missile will be on a collision course with it's target.

I know what your thinking: "This is battletech! We don't need realistic missiles. We drive walking tanks!"

But it has a benefit that, in my opinion, outweigh it's slightly greater complexity. This firing solution has a limit. If you make a sharp turn in the opposite direction or use jumpjets to suddenly accelerate, the missile will already be committed to a course that is too far off for it to correct. This would allow a skilled light pilot to break lock by outmaneuvering the missile. This would prevent the instant death that commandos and spiders face while keeping the streaks a real threat for the heavier and less maneuverable mechs.

If you guys are more interested in what proportional navigation in a video game looks like check out the World in Conflict Modern Warfare Mod. Their FLINT navigation system is superb and they were the first to introduce me to proportional navigation.

Pretty much everything here was taken from their blog post from a while back.


They also have some cool videos (and dubious music choices) on their youtube channel

Spoiler

Edited by Hobietime, 23 January 2013 - 11:27 AM.


#2 Hobietime

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:24 AM

Bump.

#3 Kelpaz

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:13 AM

I approve of this idea. What I don't get is why alot of people insist that streak missiles must be 100% hitting and break out their rule books and technical readouts.

In other games with guided missiles they have never been 100% chance of hit, not even in games like
Operation Flashpoint or ARMA2.

Edited by Kelpaz, 27 January 2013 - 05:19 AM.


#4 Theobald Hauser

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:29 AM

You're really comparing Mechwarrior Streaks to OF and ARMA 2 missiles ? O_o ???

And yes. The rule point of Streaks is that they don't fire without a certified lock. It's what make them Streak.
Your "common" guided missiles are all the other Mechwarrior missiles, except the MRMs (which are dumbfire).

#5 Elder Thorn

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:12 AM

View PostAmarius, on 27 January 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

You're really comparing Mechwarrior Streaks to OF and ARMA 2 missiles ? O_o ???

And yes. The rule point of Streaks is that they don't fire without a certified lock. It's what make them Streak.
Your "common" guided missiles are all the other Mechwarrior missiles, except the MRMs (which are dumbfire).


which leads to another question: Why don't my SRMs use lock on? :P

no seriously: I remember that i was able to dodge streaks in the past, but then some crazy patch came out and they did ALWAYS hit, no matter what you do.
Certified lock? Ok, let's say they will only shoot when they "know" 100% that they will hit. They should not achieve a lock then, when a mech so close, that the missile will have to do 90°+ turns INSIDE the launcher to hit, that's just unfair.
Yes, "unfair" - and i don't say that as someone who never uses them, i DO use them and i think it's unfair when i can kill a mech with them that allready left my field of view on a mech like the Stalker that isn't really supposed to shoot to his side in any way.

#6 Theobald Hauser

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:39 AM

Quote

which leads to another question: Why don't my SRMs use lock on?


Exactly. It's SRMs that need a little better love, not the other way around. They can't be 100% hit locking, because it's not the spirit. They're kind of a "if any somewhat serious lock is made, fire them all" weapon. Making them miss arbitrarily when correctly aimed would be a kind of skill-antagonist option, so their, the hitscan idea is a potential one.
They should work something like the dumbfired streaks of MW:LL (what should NOT be possible, the point with streaks being you can't shoot without lock), but against all logic the SRMs themselves in MW:LL are pure dumbfire ripple-fired rockets (dumbed down MRMs in fact).

#7 Hobietime

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:33 PM

I think my biggest problem with streaks is that the way they are implemented now, they would be almost impossible to hit with.

I'm all for suspension of disbelief in the sake of a good game, but assuming the missiles travel at 300 meters per second and they have a turning radius of 5 meters the radial acceleration of those missles would be 18 thousand meters per second squared. That's 2000 g's of acceleration. This is literally breaking the game's physics engine. Even if the the missiles were buffed so that they would hit every time using proportional navigation. They would at least be accelerating at much more realistic levels.

I know realism isn't the goal of this game but currently the missiles feel like they don't have any mass (which I suspect they don't because if they did the amount of force they would exert on the ragdolls of dead mechs would toss them across the map). I'm not sure about you, but missiles orbiting a light mech, which will only get worse if they remove the speed cap and add MASC, is pretty immersion-breaking for me.

Also, that algorithm that I put up is pretty much illegible currently. Sorry, one of those late night ah-ha moments where proof reading isn't the greatest. The attempted angle should be a function of dθ, not θ. And don't even ask me why I used a Cartesian axis when I using polar coordinates. I'll fix that later when I have some time.

Edited by Hobietime, 28 January 2013 - 04:37 PM.


#8 Garth Erlam

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:35 PM

We have plans that may or may not include things mentioned here :D

#9 CancR

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostKelpaz, on 27 January 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

I approve of this idea. What I don't get is why alot of people insist that streak missiles must be 100% hitting and break out their rule books and technical readouts.


Most of the people who do that are NOT battle Tech players and are quoting the rules with out understanding them. The 100% thing only means they wont fire till they get a lock, meaning you still have to roll to hit. If you fail to hit on a roll then unlike any othwer wepaon no ammo/heat is built up. But if you need a 10+ on 2d6 to hit something with a mall laser, you have that little chance to hit with streaks as well.

Streaks fail on every fundamental level of what streaks are spouse to be,They are easy to fire do more damage more damage overall then lasers and require no skill as they lock is very generous for building lock and maintaining lock

Please Garth, bring streak damage to TT damage value like so many other weapons already are.

#10 Elder Thorn

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

View PostCancR, on 28 January 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:


Most of the people who do that are NOT battle Tech players and are quoting the rules with out understanding them. The 100% thing only means they wont fire till they get a lock, meaning you still have to roll to hit. If you fail to hit on a roll then unlike any othwer wepaon no ammo/heat is built up. But if you need a 10+ on 2d6 to hit something with a mall laser, you have that little chance to hit with streaks as well.

Streaks fail on every fundamental level of what streaks are spouse to be,They are easy to fire do more damage more damage overall then lasers and require no skill as they lock is very generous for building lock and maintaining lock

Please Garth, bring streak damage to TT damage value like so many other weapons already are.


that would be pretty much what i was talking about before, and i am not a TT player - and i didn't quote the rules ;)
To put it in other terms as i understand it: Streaks benefit is not, that they ALWAYS hit, their benefit is that they do not waste ammo or heat if they do not hit.

#11 Fats McClure

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostGarth Erlam, on 28 January 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

We have plans that may or may not include things mentioned here :)


Yeah, it seems reasonable to assume that coding the streaks, to behave like a guided missile would "In Real Life" rather than 100% all the time as it is now, would be one hell of an endeavor consider there is already so many more basic fixes that need attention in this game. Lets get directX 11 and some other stuff rolling before we make the streaks all pretty.

Which isn't to say i don't completely agree with the OP, i'm just commenting on Garth's response.

#12 CancR

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:00 PM

To clear up any confusion there may be, I was talking about the same people you where talking about and not you.

Streaks have alot of probles as that all the way down the line theyu are a better choice to take over lasers or ballistics because they so much more for less, and this has been a problem with the MW franchise thought out the years. (MW4, i'm looking at you! : | )

SRMS and LRMS would at least be better if they just did TT damage, as with how bad the maps are boats of LRMS can spam from base 0 seconds in, and continue to do so all game, and if spread was increased a bit. SRMS are pretty crazy in the Vs heavy/assault meta game as they move slow enough where you can easily do tons of free damage.

#13 Firewuff

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:20 PM

SSRM are currently stupid... the number of times I have shot and it has circled AROUND a stationary mech until it explodes is stupid. Cannon was at least 1 missile will hit, i.e. a SSRM 2 will always do 2 damage and some of the time (x%) would do 4. That variability being added back would be great for balancing them.

It will also keep the balance for SSRM 6 if it is ever introduced, it will always do 2 damage but may do up to 12 so some where between a bad hit with a med laser and a AC10 (and a bit). This also balances SSRM2 boats, for 6 SSRM2 you get between 12 and 24 per volley, much better than a ALWAYS AC20 (and a bit) every time they fire now.

In summary 1 missile Always hits, every other missile has a chance of missing...... using the mechanic above which I love then 1 missile uses the old one and the others use the new....

Also re the calculations, its computationaly simple. The GPU does that thousands of times a sec to render water effects for example.

#14 TerebNeerg

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:49 AM

Sorry for the necro, just did a thread search for proportional navigation and this is the only hit. As people are favoring faster and faster 'mechs, this is getting to be a fairly serious problem with LRMs as well. Watching them chase really fast (130+) 'mechs UP a hill is kind of depressing.

Also:
Wikipedia ProNaV

Edited by TerebNeerg, 02 March 2013 - 01:51 AM.






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