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Radar Mode: Passive


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Poll: Passive Radar (45 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want Passive radar Mode?

  1. Yes. (41 votes [91.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 91.11%

  2. No. (4 votes [8.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.89%

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#1 Wraithfox

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

Basically an idea grabbed from the MWLL game with some minor changes.

A mech in passive mode has no use of its radar functions and halts its connection with the SATCOM (No enemy or friendly positions shown). It cannot mark enemy or friendly mechs via the red and blue triangles unless they are within 200m of your current position, SSRM's, LRMS (can still be dumbfired), and AMS(I believe this relies on radar system to track and shoot down incoming enemy LRMS) would cease tracking functions.

Yes, using passive mode DOES have a lot of cons, However, using it pretty much makes you near invisible to radar. I recommend the detection range of mechs in passive mode be a minimum of 200m and 400m for any enemy mech fitted with a BAP. Sensor Range and Adv. Sensor range could help increase the detection range of enemy mechs running passive.

Tags and narcs would work on marking passive enemies.
Mechs with ECM in passive mode will have their ECM units deactivated until they turn their radar back on.

It is your choice if you want to drop your radar functions to be harder to detect.


Oh, And to stop people from "Radar Flashing" (Definition below), You could make it to where radar systems take a few seconds to reboot, During the reboot process, Your radar signature is the same as if it was activated. This could effectively stop it from being abused. You could even make it to where a freshly rebooted radar takes a couple seconds to re-establish its connection with the satcom. During that time, You would not be able to relay any data to your allies until the connection is completed with the satcom.

Radar Flashing- People who have their radars off, turn it on then immediantly turn it off just to do a quick mark of enemy mechs.


On a side note, I do not mean this as an attack on ECM units, I believe ecm is fine the way it is. I just want the passive radar option.

Edit: Poll Added.

Also, This is not tabletop, This is MWO.

Edited by Wraithfox, 25 January 2013 - 12:28 PM.


#2 Wraithfox

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

Good idea or bad idea?

#3 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:43 PM

Yes - active and passive radar is what is needed for stealth in this game not ECM.

You can cripple your own radar to avoid being seen and have to rely on your eyeballs allowing scouts to remain hidden - or you can have the all seeing eye at the cost they can also see you.

Or Passive radar could simply reduce the pickup time for enemies to see you by a huge margin. So if they are looking in your direction for a decent length of time a red box might come up but no other information so scouts being too lazy and just sitting there will eventually be spotted.

The entire radar system need to be more complex before modules, BAP & ECM become useful parts of the info warfare pillar. The binary gives no level of complexity. You are seen or not via ECM and sight and thats it ... boring.

LEt give non ECM scouts some use with a passive radar system to allow ECM lights to be better not the only ones who can scout without being seen.

#4 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

Bad idea. We're basically working off TT visual detection as it is, though ECM is broken.

#5 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostSolis Obscuri, on 24 January 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Bad idea. We're basically working off TT visual detection as it is, though ECM is broken.


Nothing is stopping visual detection you have eyeballs.

This is about how radar works in a complex environment which has nothing to do with TT

#6 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:22 PM

TT radar was a 360º scan. What we have matches TT visual detection rules precisely (except for the ECM jamming).

#7 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:29 PM

Then we have already broken from TT rules and if so lets talk about how to make them better to make the game more interesting, tactical and fun.

#8 Dirus Nigh

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:30 PM

I've played MWLL and I liked how they did the radar system. If mechs running passive sensors only delayed target detection, rather than out right denying them, at long ranges I think it would work. After all a mechs active scans would pick up the mech its self.

#9 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:02 PM

On the subject of visible-light and IR band tracking systems....
http://www.defence.p...st-systems.html

Short version; we aren't necessarily using an active radar system to be able to locate and track targets.

Battletech level 3 detection rules use visual-band detection as the primary mode, allowing secondary scans each round using RADAR, IR, Magnetic, or Seismic sensors. These alternate sensor modes were most useful under situations when there was little visible light (Seismic was also useful in not requiring LoS), and they all had differing ranges and resistance to jamming:

Quote

SPOTTING PHASE
During the Spotting Phase. the gamemaster checks to see if any enemy unit is seen by an opposing unit.

To perform spotting, the gamemaster checks his map sheets after plotting the movement of the players' units. He first determines if the units can detect any enemy unit visually. Then he checks to see if they can detect any enemy unit by using sensors. The gamemaster then informs each player of the location, facing and type of any enemy unit detected.

Units that start a double-blind game using the Hidden Units rules (p.77, BMR) cannot be spotted except by the methods outlined in the standard game rules. If a hidden unit fires, it is spotted only if an enemy unit could have seen it under the visual spotting rules.

VISUAL SPOTTING
A unit visually detects an enemy unit whenever three conditions are met. First, the enemy unit must lie within the forward firing arc of the spotting unit. Second, the spotter must have a clear line of sight to the enemy unit. Third, the enemy unit must be within the visual range of the spotting unit. Use the Visual Range Table to determine maximum visual range under various
atmospheric conditions.
Spoiler

Vehicles with more than one crew member can spot in multiple firing arcs (see Vehicle Crews, p.28). Each additional crewmember beyond the first can spot in one additional firing arc, so that a vehicle with 4 or more crew members can spot in a 360 degree arc. Though infantry troops cannot see as far as BattleMechs or vehicles, they can serve as an excellent early warning system when properly deployed, because they offer the advantage of 360-degree spotting arcs.

SENSOR SPOTTING
Electronic sensors cover a wider field than most visual checks, but they can be fooled by the proper counter-measures. Electronic sensors operate in a 360-degree arc, regardless of the spotting unit's firing arc. All sensors, with the exception of seismic sensors, must have a line of sight to an enemy unit to detect it. The ranges of various BattleTech electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table, p. 54.

To use a sensor, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. A spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, and the controlling player must indicate this choice on the movement chart for that turn. (Note that the probe and sensor rules provided here apply in double-blind games only.)
Spoiler

Three enemy 'Mechs surround Natalie's Raven. Daylight fills the battlefield, and the Raven sees the first enemy 'Mech easily-the machine is within the Raven's forward firing arc, the Raven has a valid LOS and the enemy unit is only 14 hexes away, well within the Raven's 60-hex visual range. The second 'Mech lies 12 hexes away, within the Raven's LOS but in its left-side firing arc. The third lies in the Raven's rear firing arc, 19 hexes away, again within its LOS. The Raven mounts a Beagle active probe, which Natalie has activated for this turn, and so the gamemaster rolls 2D6 to determine if her Raven spots the remaining two "Mechs. The roll yields a result of 8, indicating that only units within short range are detected. This means that the Raven detects the second 'Mech, but not the third.

Vehicles have access to sensor systems similar to those used on 'Mechs, but in most cases these systems have shorter ranges, reflected in the Sensor Range Table. Infantry units do not have access to electronic sensors.

If seismic sensors are being used, any unit within range is spotted regardless of LOS. VTOLs cannot use seismic sensors, and they cannot be spotted by seismic sensors.

ECM SYSTEMS
Just as special sensors can make spottimg enemy units easier, special ECM systems can make units harder to detect. As a general rule, ECM systems mask a unit's nature and precise location from enemy sensors. but the systems' powerful jamming devices make it clear to the enemy that something is out there.

In the double-blind game, the Angel ECM suite, Guardian ECM suite and standard Clan ECM suites all modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit's probe/sensor and the enemy unit's ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM Modifier Table.
Spoiler

To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius ofthe ECM system. This radius is not affected by LOS. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems.

Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they also produce powerful. distinctive electromagnetic "signatures." If a spotting unit is in range of an active ECM device and fails to detect the ECM-equipped unit, inform the player that his unit has been jammed by an ECM suite.

The rules given here for each of the probes and ECM systems only apply in double-blind games. For general BattleTech rules governing the Guardian and Clan ECM suites and the Beagle active probe, see pages 122, 126-127 of the BattleTech Master Rules. For general rules and descriptions of the Bloodhound active probe, see Equipment, page 72.

(Maximum Tech, p.50-51)

And with that enormous mouthful said, I'm not opposed to introducing some alternate scanning/detection modes - but I think we can do a lot better than just "Active RADAR" and "Passive RADAR".

And additionally... RADAR isn't necessarily how you know where your team is on a map.

#10 R3D Alert

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:20 PM

Definitely agree on passive mode and adds more tactical depth.

#11 Larkis

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:35 PM

Very bad idea. The actual system is much bether then MWLL.

#12 Mao of DC

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:15 AM

Eariler MW game have a pasive mode for sensors. I seem to remember a mission in MW4 where you were required to turn your sensors off so you could sneak into a base. I like the idea not sure if it could be used in this incarnation or MW though.

#13 Wraithfox

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM

View PostMao of DC, on 25 January 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Eariler MW game have a pasive mode for sensors. I seem to remember a mission in MW4 where you were required to turn your sensors off so you could sneak into a base. I like the idea not sure if it could be used in this incarnation or MW though.

This would work perfectly for MWO. Passive radar would also reduce the complaints on ECM because every mech would be able to have its own form of invisibility on demand. Those who dont like it simply don't have to turn their radar off. They can't complain because those who DO use it are COMPLETELY blinded in the form of radar.

#14 Theobald Hauser

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

I like this idea.

But it's against some science thniggies behind Mech sensors. They're not just a radar.

Edited by Amarius, 25 January 2013 - 03:22 PM.


#15 0beron

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

This idea sounds pretty cool, I'd be all for some sort of toggle able radar system. It could add some fun dynamics to the game.

#16 knight-of-ni

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostMao of DC, on 25 January 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Eariler MW game have a pasive mode for sensors. I seem to remember a mission in MW4 where you were required to turn your sensors off so you could sneak into a base. I like the idea not sure if it could be used in this incarnation or MW though.


Yes, I believe you are referring to a mission from MW4. When Spectre Lance encounters the Smoke Jaguars, you are introduced to the concept of passive sensors.

It seems to me that PGI has intentionally gone out of their way to implement radar in a new way. I'm not sure if I prefer one method over the other (I think they are both fun), but I am willing to keep things as they are for the moment.

Edited by knnniggett, 25 January 2013 - 12:26 PM.


#17 Werewolf486 ScorpS

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

Forgetting the lore thumping....

Yes, Passive/Active sensors should be an option, just like toggle of the AMS. AMS is just as much of a give away as an active radar.

#18 Wraithfox

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostWerewolf486, on 25 January 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Forgetting the lore thumping....

Yes, Passive/Active sensors should be an option, just like toggle of the AMS. AMS is just as much of a give away as an active radar.

I believe that AMS uses radar to target missiles, So naturally if you turn your radar to passive, AMS is disabled.

#19 BerryChunks

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostWraithfox, on 24 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Basically an idea grabbed from the MWLL game with some minor changes.

A mech in passive mode has no use of its radar functions and halts its connection with the SATCOM (No enemy or friendly positions shown). It cannot mark enemy or friendly mechs via the red and blue triangles unless they are within 200m of your current position, SSRM's, LRMS (can still be dumbfired), and AMS(I believe this relies on radar system to track and shoot down incoming enemy LRMS) would cease tracking functions.

Yes, using passive mode DOES have a lot of cons, However, using it pretty much makes you near invisible to radar. I recommend the detection range of mechs in passive mode be a minimum of 200m and 400m for any enemy mech fitted with a BAP. Sensor Range and Adv. Sensor range could help increase the detection range of enemy mechs running passive.

Tags and narcs would work on marking passive enemies.
Mechs with ECM in passive mode will have their ECM units deactivated until they turn their radar back on.

It is your choice if you want to drop your radar functions to be harder to detect.


Oh, And to stop people from "Radar Flashing" (Definition below), You could make it to where radar systems take a few seconds to reboot, During the reboot process, Your radar signature is the same as if it was activated. This could effectively stop it from being abused. You could even make it to where a freshly rebooted radar takes a couple seconds to re-establish its connection with the satcom. During that time, You would not be able to relay any data to your allies until the connection is completed with the satcom.

Radar Flashing- People who have their radars off, turn it on then immediantly turn it off just to do a quick mark of enemy mechs.


On a side note, I do not mean this as an attack on ECM units, I believe ecm is fine the way it is. I just want the passive radar option.

Edit: Poll Added.

Also, This is not tabletop, This is MWO.


people need to stop using that fallacy "This is not tabletop, this is MWO". They're BOTH battletech, unless one or the other changes too significantly from CBT to be valid anymore.

Also "radar flashing" isn't a problem because it takes time to get info and missile locks anyway,

#20 Wraithfox

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostBerryChunks, on 25 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:


people need to stop using that fallacy "This is not tabletop, this is MWO". They're BOTH battletech, unless one or the other changes too significantly from CBT to be valid anymore.

Also "radar flashing" isn't a problem because it takes time to get info and missile locks anyway,

I will stop using it once people stop trying to turn this game into TT. Until then, I will continue to use it, Because in the end MWO IS NOT tabletop. They may come from the same franchise but they are different games. Stop trying to use it to justify how things should be.

Back on topic, Radar flashing would be a problem, Because it does not take ANY time to highlight your enemies mechs with a beacon. The data is irrelevant when you aren't shooting at them, You only want their general position (which is instant).

Edited by Wraithfox, 25 January 2013 - 02:29 PM.






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