37 replies to this topic

[Eddrick]

I prefer to rely on my eyes then on my Mechs sensors. I also prefer to not advertise my location in any way. Give us Passive Sensors please!

[Sasuga]

I think its great. As far as preventing long range locks or not.. I think not being able to lock at long ranges or not should be based on the Mech's current heat level. A hot mech could be picked up by other sensors, however a cool mech just looks like a building.

Then there's always NARC and TAG! Running passive, can't shoot you long range? Well, I can when my little buddy TAGs you!

I like the idea.

[Eddrick]

Sasuga, on 25 January 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I think its great. As far as preventing long range locks or not.. I think not being able to lock at long ranges or not should be based on the Mech's current heat level. A hot mech could be picked up by other sensors, however a cool mech just looks like a building.

Thermal Sensors. It's in the TT game. The hotter a Mech is running. The easyer it is to track.

[Oppresor]

Passive radar mode fits nicely into the EPM (Electronic Preventative Measures) part of ECM in the Military world. We had it before so we should have it now.

[blinkin]

wow as of currently 11 yes and 0 no. is it even allowed for everyone to agree on something within a forum?

i feel like we are breaking some sort of natural law.

[General Taskeen]

Basically every game play feature of MW:LL is a good idea.

However, I think you should change the poll to, "Do you want Active/Passive radar functionality?"

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 January 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Eddrick]

General Taskeen, on 25 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Basically every game play feature of MW:LL is a good idea.

I have been seeing this phrase a lot. They should hire them on. I here this company is hireing and the makers of Living Ledgends are likely looking for work.

[Strum Wealh]

Actually, the Devs have already stated (in Dev Q&A 03) that there would be a passive radar mode.

Quote

Will radar still have a passive mode, and if so, how does it work? –Octobit

[DAVID] Yes, radar will have an active and a passive mode. Our current plans are for the passive radar to have a reduced detection range and limit a lot of the electronic and information warfare equipment on your ’Mech as well as the electronic communication between you and your lance. The benefit is that you become a lot harder for enemies to detect, leading to greater chances to surprise or spy on them.

However, a lot of the information in the accompanying Dev Blog (that is, Dev Blog 02) seems to indicate that "going passive" probably won't mean too much (if much of anything) in the long run.

Quote

Detection

So how do you gather LOSD information? Well there are several ways.

• Direct – You can see the target directly (LOSD).
  
• Radar – Your radar can detect a target in a predetermined arc, also LOSD.
  
• Satellite Scan – Orbital scan of the battlefield, highly efficient however still limited to top-down LOSD.
  
• UAV – Similar to a Sat Scan, but localized to a specific area on the battlefield.
  
• Detectors – Dropped off on the battlefield.
  
• Units – Any non-BattleMech present on the battlefield.

Detection Modes

Each type of detection device may also have different primary or secondary modes of detection as follows:

• Night Vision – Allows players to see more detail in low light situations.
  
• Thermal Vision – Allows players to see heat signatures that can be detected through obstacles.
  
• Magnetometer Assisted – Allows players to detect metal and metal densities which can uncover a BattleMech hiding behind a building.

Some of these modes will not be available at launch, but I want to give you an overview of where we plan to take this concept.

Of course, simply turning off one's radar shouldn't/won't make one run significantly cooler, so one would still show up on IR sensors (which, in TT, actually slightly out-range the radar; see page 222 of Tactical Operations) and thermal vision - that is, unless one is also equipped with an actual thermal stealth system (NullSig (perma-lost LosTech), Stealth Armor (not invented until 3063), or VoidSig (not invented until 3070)) or has zero excess heat (that is, the heat bar is at zero).
And if/when the alternate munitions are implemented, as mentioned in AtD-17, such things as Heat-Seeking Warheads for LRMs (and SRMs?) could/would/should render merely "going passive radar" as a means of missile defense a largely moot point.

Likewise, simply turning off one's radar doesn't stop one's 'Mech from being a large collection of mostly-ferrous parts surrounding the powerful magnetic bottle that is the Fusion Engine, so one would still show up on the Dev-mentioned Magnetometer-Assisted Detection (aka MAD; like IR sensors, these "MagScan sensors" also slightly out-range the radar in TT) as well.
And since none of the stealth systems can change a 'Mech's material composition or make significant changes to the planetary magnetic field, the only way to beat MagScan is (or should be) to be in an area characterized by similar objects (iron/steel-heavy structures (such as buildings or ships) and large ore deposits) or magnetic anomalies (e.g. standing in an analogue of the Bermuda Triangle or next to an operational power station).

(While not explicitly mentioned by the Devs in their Dev Blog, BattleMechs also mount seismic sensors in TT; these have a range of 180 meters (6 hexes) and allow the 'Mech to detect any ground vehicle that moves (in TT terms, expends MP for such activities as turning in place, walking/running, and landing after use if Jump Jets). As a point of comparison in terms of video-gaming, this is essentially how the "motion sensor" in Halo works. And since none of the stealth systems can make a 'Mech hover over the ground, the only way to not show up on seismic sensors is to not move...)

The "Detectors" referenced in the Dev Blog are most likely an allusion to TT's Remote Sensors, which are equipped with the same types of radar, IR, MagScan, and seismic sensors as BattleMechs and may be launched from 'Mech-mounted Remote Sensor Dispensers (which carry 30 such sensors per half-ton), and are (canonically) capable of linking and reporting to any friendly Active Probe (that is, BAP), C3 Master Unit, or Command Console (and a couple other things).

The "Satellite Scan" and "UAV" capabilities would probably take the same visual/night-vision/IR/MagScan sensors and direct them downward from on-high rather than (more-or-less) parallel to the ground, such that one would need to be in a tunnel or under a bridge, have their 'Mech painted up in actually-appropriate camo, running cool or using thermal stealth systems, and/or in a MagScan-unfriendly environment to avoid detection.

So, yes, "passive radar" is planned to be in-game... but it is unlikely that it will be anywhere near as useful as equipping an actual stealth system (foe which there will be a c-bill cost, and for which there is always a tonnage, space, and or heat cost) outside of a (likely small) number of specific and situational circumstances, especially if/when the full set of InfoWar capabilities described in the Dev Blog (along with some other goodies, like AltAmmo) is implemented - there is, IMO, a very high chance that it will be far from the nigh-invisibility that it sounds like the OP is invisioning.

[Eddrick]

Amazing dig Strum Wealh! You effectivly agrued both sides to were nothing more realy needs to be said.

Strum Wealh, on 25 January 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

(While not explicitly mentioned by the Devs in their Dev Blog, BattleMechs also mount seismic sensors in TT; these have a range of 180 meters (6 hexes) and allow the 'Mech to detect any ground vehicle that moves (in TT terms, expends MP for such activities as turning in place, walking/running, and landing after use if Jump Jets). As a point of comparison in terms of video-gaming, this is essentially how the "motion sensor" in Halo works. And since none of the stealth systems can make a 'Mech hover over the ground, the only way to not show up on seismic sensors is to not move...)

I remember this from the TT rules. It's my favorite secondary sensor. No matter what you do. You can be found as long as you are moving within it's range.

[Carrioncrows]

You mean like what someone suggested here?

http://mwomercs.com/...eedback-thread/

[Romzdetz]

Nice idea!

[Shiro Kell]

Seriously? You are worrying about active/passive radar when the maps are so small, and so familiar to regular players, that any team would be hard pressed to avoid the other even without and kind of electronic detection ( refuse to call what we have radar). Then once an engagement does occur, this would only serve as another reason for a brawl fest.

IMO, there are so many bugs, inconsitencies, oversights, and just plain mistakes from PGI in the making and implementation of this game, that I dont think we should stretch them any further by adding requests that any more difficult that making in cockpit holiday items. At least not until the fix the rest first.

[Khobai]

Idea is good. Suggested implementation is poor. If you don't understand why ECM stealth bubble is currently overpowered than you don't understand why passive radar reducing detection range to 200m would be equally overpowered. 350m-400m would be far more balanced for the stealth bubble.


The way sensor warfare should work is that each mech should have a percentage based detection signature that modifies the range it can be detected it based on various factors. So for example if your radar signature is 100% you could be detected at 800m, if your radar signature is 50% you could be detected at 400m, and so on...

Base signature with active radar mode = 100%, detected at 800m
Passive = -60% signature, detected at 320m and ECM is turned off while passive
ECM = -60% signature, detected at 320m but doesn't stack with passive radar mode
Powered down = -80% signature (doesnt stack with anything)
Overheating = +X% signature equal to how badly youre overheating (hotter you are the easier you are to detect)


Passive Radar mode halves your base sensor range and turns off ECM and active sensor enhancements
BAP increases radar range by 25%
Sensor2 increases radar range by 25%


The reason why a percentage based system is preferable is because it gives players complete control over how stealthy they want to be or how good at detection they want to be.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Wraithfox]

Shiro Kell, on 26 January 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Seriously? You are worrying about active/passive radar when the maps are so small, and so familiar to regular players, that any team would be hard pressed to avoid the other even without and kind of electronic detection ( refuse to call what we have radar). Then once an engagement does occur, this would only serve as another reason for a brawl fest.

IMO, there are so many bugs, inconsitencies, oversights, and just plain mistakes from PGI in the making and implementation of this game, that I dont think we should stretch them any further by adding requests that any more difficult that making in cockpit holiday items. At least not until the fix the rest first.

So basically you dont want any more content added until all the bugs and complaints are handled? Impossible. Someone will always have something to complain about.

[Theobald Hauser]

Oh yeah, Streaks arguments will bury us all. Our grand-grand-children will know about them.

[General Taskeen]

I actually never knew the Devs touched on Active/Passive radar in their blogs. It almost contradicts what they said in video interviews where they wanted to get rid "always knowing where your enemy is" radar from some other Mech Warrior titles, when that wasn't always the case.

In Mech Warrior 3, for instance, someone in "Active" 360 See-Through-Terrain Radar isn't going to see another player using Passive mode for scouting, stealth, or ambushes, etc. MW:LL took that concept and brought to to the next level in order to piece together how the radar interacts with the detection range of both modes, LOS, ECM, Information Warfare, and Lock-On weapons. Active/Passive, in actuality, offers a tactical choice if balanced properly in order to make Mech Warrior seem more like a simulation.

Some of the balancing measures, when MW:LL incorporated it, that I think are so well done (making everything work in a paper/rock/scissor fashion):

• An Active radar user can still use lock-on weapons against someone using Passive radar if they are in LOS. It also gives the benefit of missile warnings. Overall, it gives an additional benefit to situational awareness, but can't be relied 100% of the time since it can not detect Mechs that are running around using Passive actively trying to sneak around.
  
• Using Active Radar to detect another Mech that is also using Active can target to receive the "target box," but with limited information if they do not have LOS of one another (the whole "information" thing).
  
• While using Passive you receive no missile warnings and any guided missiles you have, whether they need to be locked first, or automatically seek NARC beacons or TAG lasers, can not seek out targets (but you can dumb fire them). You are also detectable within 300m of Active Radar. NARC and TAG can also be used against you for guided missiles.
  
• ECM reduces radar detection range, and reduces lock on time (and that's it, it does not make you un-lockable). Using ECM+Passive makes you invisible to any radar, but you still have every disadvantage of Passive radar.

• C3 was also included brilliantly, which augments your targeted information and shares it with any other Mech that has a C3 Master or Slave. If you also detect someone in Passive mode, your targeted information will share with anyone within range, making your target visible on their radar even if they are not in range.
  
• It also creates a very fast, overlapping target sharing network with 1,000m range like the image example

The only thing I wish they would have added is for GECM/AECM to break up C3 Networks and make C3 Master units act like TAG.

Edited by General Taskeen, 26 January 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[blinkin]

my god this is an old one. i had entirely forgotten about this.

[IrrelevantFish]

Not a fan of this idea, because it benefits the individual player at the expense of the team. In passive mode, you're much harder to hit, but you're also failing to provide intel to your teammates or target locks to friendly missile boats. This means that in PUG matches, everyone without SSRMs or LRMs is going to play entirely in passive mode, leading to even less coordination and cooperation.

Granted, that means hamstringing your own team, and being judicious about the use of passive mode would be more likely to result in victory for a coordinated team, but that kind of thinking is just not productive in PUG matches, where most people are out for themselves. Unless I was in an 8-man or a 4-man with an LRM boat, I'd probably be an all-passive player myself.