18 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

It's been only three days since I made my Regarding Abusive Build post, and now it has got nine pages of replies with half of people defending those builds and the the other half claiming them OP. With that kind of controversy there's probably something actually questionable.

I thought about it and think it probably should come down to map design.

Fact is the hexa-SRM6 Cat A1 is absolutely deadly within 100 meters but totally defenseless outside of the range of SRM. Lack of long-range engagement ability should be a severe short-leg - I've heard old MechWarrior veterans saying this kind of build is entirely not applicable in earlier games - but unfortunately it is not reflected correctly in any way under current map design.

River City - two tight urban area on flanks, one open-ish water surface in the middle. Frozen City - Two tight urban area on sides, two choke points on flanks, one open area in the middle. Forest Colony - half of map being large open area with plenty of cover, half being tight valley with tons of choke points. And of course there's the volcano map which is all wide open.

And you wonder why those whole-brawl builds feel like home.

In the vid I included in the original post - thanks again Indoorsman - it can be clearly seen that a pilot who knows what he's doing would utilized the buildings as covers or jump pads. You wanna spot the Splatcats and keep distance? Under current map design, chance is YOU WON'T SEE THEM COMING (remember the spider kill?). After that it's not that hard to pull off stuff like triple kills.

Imagine a boat like that in Caustic alley.

I hate to say that PGI has got more work to do, but they prooooooooooooooobably should do some re-designing on the maps.

Edited by Helmstif, 04 February 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Alcatraz968]

As a splatapult pilot, i would agree with anyone its overpowered. But the reasons are as you mention. The maps are to small and everyone tries to brawl. I just point and laugh as i run through there team; killing, maiming, and making my team win for sure even if i die (I still usually place first).

But put me on Caustic Valley and its a different story. I have to think very hard to even stay alive. I rarely excel beyond my team and only in a few instances have i done anywhere near what i can do on say Frozen City. The Splatapult is a specialized mech that will do well in the right hands and the right map.

Very few mech's i believe are "OP", just built to the best of what we are given. Which is what mechwarrior's is about. When the new maps come in, the splatapult is going to go to become as rare as a Jenner.
(Personal note: I hope they make the Jenner a usable Mech again. Right now, ECM ravens eat you alive.)

[MagicHamsta]

Helmstif, on 04 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Imagine a boat like that in Caustic alley.

I hate to say that PGI has got more work to do, but they prooooooooooooooobably should do some re-designing on the maps.

Waffles.
Caustic be the worst map out of all available maps for SRM cats.

1) Heat.
2) Lack of cover.
3) Leeroy Catapult.

The above 3 combined makes Caustic the worst map for SRM cats. Heck, me just got out of a solo drop against an obvious premade of 3 SRM cats who died horrible deaths in caustic.
They took quite a bit of damage before they made up their minds to charge. By then it was too late & they were either dead or missing ears.

River City (Ton of cover, literally can't go 100 meters without some sort of cover nearby, outside of water.) or Frozen City (Alpha Cat receives highest damage multiplier due to additional cooling *more shots* + decent cover) be arguably the best.

[CECILOFS]

Ironically* its ECM that's made it like this. Before you could spot the Cat and at least have a chance of hitting it with LRMs before it got into range. Now it can walk next to a DDC and be almost immune to LRMs plus not show up on anyone's radar, so they won't know its coming in.

*Because ECM was partially to nerf Streakcats, but only made them worse

Edited by CECILOFS, 04 February 2013 - 11:20 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

CECILOFS, on 04 February 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

*Because ECM was partially to nerf Streakcats, but only made them worse

In fact I heard that according to lore, even Angel ECM should not disrupt SSRM lock. Plus, since now SSRM have lower cockpick knock - or so I've heard - what makes Streakpult annoying is no longer viable.

Now ECM just ruins everything.

[Escef]

We do need more maps anyway. The SRMcat is a very focused build that is good at what it does. In the hands of an average pilot, like me, it does decent. In the hands of an expert, well, even a half-assed design is deadly, and the SRMcat even more so for being a big, fast, brawler. (I tend to do as well or better with my K2 mounting 2 LLs and 2 AC5.)

We do need more maps that encourage open field fighting. But once we have those, I promise you, people will whine about Gausscats, Gaussphracts, ACboats, et al. It's human nature to complain.

[Hex Pallett]

IMHO what we need is a River Colony with less choke points, or a Caustic Valley with less...heat. I totally love Caustic Valley, with a barrier-like crated in the middle to halt direct LRM/Sniper fire, a side area behind ridge for strike lance to go blitzkrieg and a few brawling arenas. The heat in the crater also prevents players from going moshpit in it.

Wait, this just came to mind - what if we have something like Caustic Valley Stormfront? With the same hotpot crater but less ambient heat? That would be a much better weapon test ground if you ask me.

[Hex Pallett]

Ooookay so apparently Splatcat is not the only 'Mech benefiting from current map design. Just converted my DDC to pure brawling build - STD350, AC20, triple-ASRM4 and a pair of MPL.

First match, pugging, 709 damage done.

[Regrets]

I like that the maps penalize certain strategies and enhance others. Balanced builds don't have to worry which map they load, and boats are semi-useless on others. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be?

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Alcatraz968, on 04 February 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

As a splatapult pilot, i would agree with anyone its overpowered. But the reasons are as you mention. The maps are to small and everyone tries to brawl. I just point and laugh as i run through there team; killing, maiming, and making my team win for sure even if i die (I still usually place first).

But put me on Caustic Valley and its a different story. I have to think very hard to even stay alive. I rarely excel beyond my team and only in a few instances have i done anywhere near what i can do on say Frozen City. The Splatapult is a specialized mech that will do well in the right hands and the right map.

Very few mech's i believe are "OP", just built to the best of what we are given. Which is what mechwarrior's is about. When the new maps come in, the splatapult is going to go to become as rare as a Jenner.
(Personal note: I hope they make the Jenner a usable Mech again. Right now, ECM ravens eat you alive.)

I still love my Jenner.

I understand what you're saying but I do love my Jenner.

And mechs aren't OP. Pilots are!

Khan DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa

[LordDante]

whut about my wang no one ever complains about his imbaness...

im so sad

[1453 R]

Helm, I will break your face O_O

But before that...yes. In older MechWarrior games, you did not go around with multiple SRM launchers, nothing but, and expect to do fine. I've played every single one of them since 2, and only in certain, very specialized missions, or in the early rounds of a playthrough when you and your enemies both are using small, fast 'Mechs, can you be expected to accomplish your mission boating SRMs

There's a reason this sort of build is generally relegated to SRM carriers in the tabletop game, and for those carriers to be used as nothing more than cheap ways to defend chokepoints for urban units - a unit (as in a military formation i.e. First Charon Regulars, not a single 'Mech) that needs to be able to accomplish military objectives, rather than just deathmatch its face off, needs to be more flexible than a pile of SRMs allows. Back in the day you actually cared about how fast you could go, about being able to handle yourself in multiple engagement ranges, and whether or not you could handle the heat your machine generated. Most importantly, you cared about your endurance, about whether three tons of ammunition for one SRM launcher was sufficient to keep it fed through a mission, about whether your energy armament could keep you fighting when you ran out of ammo for your ballistics - because you would.

That's significantly not the case in this game. No one needs to carry enough ammunition to last through several battles, no one needs to pace themselves anymore. The maps are part of it, but I honestly blame the arena-like game modes more. This is a MechWarrior game - I know, because it's been making me crazy nostalgic over all the other MechWarrior games I've played rather than reminding me of that horrible, horrible single morning I spent playing ChromeHounds - but I swear I feel more like a Solaris gladiator than a military pilot in the current set-up. As much as I dislike Battlefield games, even one big-a**ed map with the sort of multiple-stage objective you see in a Battlefield game would knock out the Splattercats right quick. It'd also knock out the AC20 K2s, the no-LRMs Atlases, and all those other pure brawlers.

Nothing wrong with brawling, even by the standards of older MechWarrior games - but brawlers are supposed to have to pay for their close-range performance by needing to be cannier and luckier than longer-ranged 'Mechs, and also by being kinda bad at actually doing stuff. Heh...the first time you have to escort an armored car in MWO will also be the last time you see Catapult drivers - or anything drivers - brave enough to go without distance weapons of any sort.

Edited by 1453 R, 07 February 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[Selfish]

Helmstif, on 04 February 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

In fact I heard that according to lore, even Angel ECM should not disrupt SSRM lock. Plus, since now SSRM have lower cockpick knock - or so I've heard - what makes Streakpult annoying is no longer viable.

Now ECM just ruins everything.

In lore Guardian ECM messed up SSRM firing solutions, it's just that SSRMs weren't guided missiles. They had a targeting computer that wouldn't let you fire unless it thought you'd hit, so for all intents and purposes they were just really efficient SRMs. If you became jammed by ECM (all versions affect targeting computers) you'd lose that efficient functionality and temporarily have SRMs. This method of aiming/firing is easy and logical in TT and lore, but it's headache worthy to implement in a computer game.

Angel ECM is largely a counter to the Bloodhound Active Probe, which was a late 3050's module that functioned as a Beagle Active Probe that is also able to see through Guardian, stealth armor, and signature trickery. What Guardian can do is quite expansive, and we don't even feel all of its effects. For example, it's also supposed to mess up your vision modes (night vision, heat vision, magnatometer, etc.).

[Hex Pallett]

Quick question: are TT maps mostly wide open?

[Phoenix Gray]

Helmstif, on 04 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

It's been only three days since I made my Regarding Abusive Build post, and now it has got nine pages of replies with half of people defending those builds and the the other half claiming them OP. With that kind of controversy there's probably something actually questionable.

I thought about it and think it probably should come down to map design.

Fact is the hexa-SRM6 Cat A1 is absolutely deadly within 100 meters but totally defenseless outside of the range of SRM. Lack of long-range engagement ability should be a severe short-leg - I've heard old MechWarrior veterans saying this kind of build is entirely not applicable in earlier games - but unfortunately it is not reflected correctly in any way under current map design.

River City - two tight urban area on flanks, one open-ish water surface in the middle. Frozen City - Two tight urban area on sides, two choke points on flanks, one open area in the middle. Forest Colony - half of map being large open area with plenty of cover, half being tight valley with tons of choke points. And of course there's the volcano map which is all wide open.

And you wonder why those whole-brawl builds feel like home.

In the vid I included in the original post - thanks again Indoorsman - it can be clearly seen that a pilot who knows what he's doing would utilized the buildings as covers or jump pads. You wanna spot the Splatcats and keep distance? Under current map design, chance is YOU WON'T SEE THEM COMING (remember the spider kill?). After that it's not that hard to pull off stuff like triple kills.

Imagine a boat like that in Caustic alley.

I hate to say that PGI has got more work to do, but they prooooooooooooooobably should do some re-designing on the maps.

Yeah, but by the same argument, if I were a defending garrison in a city buildup, or guarding against the caves, a splatcat or AC20pult would be EXACTLY what I'd want for those missions. And the early BT tech manuals were full of sob stories where city fighters like UrbanMechs or Wyvverns got suckered out into open country and slaughtered. So this isn't a new discussion or PGI-specific problem by any means.

And if you think we're having this argument now, wait until the Clans show up with Omnis that can be specially tailored for every single terrain...

[Legion]

Im just hoping splatcats get balance in some sort of way the cod maps we have now are certainly not helping.

[Snoopy]

Helmstif, on 07 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Quick question: are TT maps mostly wide open?

TT maps are mixed. There are open areas or maos. But you can also find heavy forest/jungle or city maps.

You have all kind of different map designs in TT. Hope this helps.

[BlacKcuD]

If the map pool gets bigger it will solve itself I think. There will always be builds that are tailored to an optimal distance. This happens in every multiplayer game where you can shoot stuff and select your weapons for it. At the moment the situation is very lopsided but it will change. I remember one of the dev´s saying that the new maps will be much bigger than the current ones.

p.s. Also, they need to find a balance: if all maps where completely open and huge and stuff everyone would QQ about sniper builds. That you can´t possibly show as much as an antenna before getting blasted into oblivion We don´t want that either and it can quickly snap from the current situation to this.

[S.Vimes]

I'm all for bigger maps... much bigger maps please!
I saw a lot of games with very few to no light mechs at all. This can be funny if you are playing the only light mech and buzz around the heavies and if all fails just cap 'em
But on the current maps you don't really need a lot of scouting. Larger maps would make actual scouts much more useful. Find the enemy, report back and G T F O* before you get shot to bits... or try to sneak around them with a tag for your friends with the LRMs - the game would get much more tactical.
And once we have larger maps - how about randomized drop zones?

*W T F? The letters G T F O are getting **** out without spaces between them.
[edit: decensored posting]

Edited by S.Vimes, 18 February 2013 - 06:00 AM.