118 replies to this topic

[Zylo]

Nahuris, on 12 February 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

I have a further question on it --- in support of the OP, which I agree with.
How is it going to work with an experienced player taking new recruits? Will the elo even let them be on the same team?
Plus, if you have a great group, how will you get new recruits? Anyone you fight is likely to already be that good, and just as likely to be on a team themselves...... This means that the better a team gets, the less likely they will be able to recruit, or even go out and join newer players.......

To me, it smacks of stagnant growth in units.....

Nahuris

I wouldn't be surprised if team Elo ratings threw out any rating that was too far off the team average when trying to find a match.

Lets say a team of 8 has 7 pilots with 1500 Elo rating and a new recruit with 1300 Elo rating. The system might throw out that 1300 for being too far off the average to prevent abuse by some groups that might bring a low Elo player along to find easier matches.

[Nahuris]

Which adds another point --- experienced players making secondary, or throw-away, accounts, so that they can jump on with their team.... but keep the ELO low enough to guarantee an easy game..... You just rotate around with which player is "taking one for the team" each battle, and you get to build huge strings of wins, while using the system to guarantee that you won't even accidentally face someone at your level.......

Nahuris

[Goose]

… Maybe it's just one account they pass around …

[Voidsinger]

ELO only workd for combat. That's the metric it measures, little else. It has nothing to do with mission effectiveness.

I've been piloting a fair few lights in Conquest mode.

I do a bucketload of capping, and essentially am the primary points contributor.

That said, if I spend the entire game capping, even on a points win, I end up at the bottom of the table, with the lowest score, the lowest XP, and the lowest C-Bills.

It's there to prevent the veteran combat wombat from doing the "eats roots, shoots and leaves" on the new players. It doesn't stop superb non-combat roles from having low ELO scores.

[Thirdstar]

Voidsinger, on 12 February 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

veteran combat wombat

Apologies, the phrase just tickled my funny bone.

[Sifright]

I'm of the opinion it is going to force premades to face premades.

or pugs that are capable of very high degree of skill in individual pilotage which will allow them to be on even footing.

Edit: I look forward to the day where I don't play with a group of pugs that die before getting more than 20 damage. :|

Edited by Sifright, 12 February 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[Kobold]

Voidsinger, on 12 February 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

ELO only workd for combat. That's the metric it measures, little else.

So, so wrong.

Elo has nothing to do with the "combat score" system that PGI is planning on using as an e-peen stat (which they hope will replace K/D as the thing everyone brags about).

Elo ranking is ONLY about wins and losses. See: http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system

Quote

Each player has a numerical rating. A higher number indicates a better player, based on results against other rated players. The winner of a contest between two players gains a certain number of points in his or her rating and the losing player loses the same amount. The number of points won or lost in a contest depends on the difference in the ratings of the players, so a player will gain more points by beating a higher-rated player than by beating a lower-rated player.

It is only about wins and losses. You win, your score goes up. You lose, it goes down. How much it goes up or down is based on the ratings of your opponents. Eventually, over time, the scores normalize and people mostly play against similarly matched opponents.

[Zero Neutral]

Riffleman, on 11 February 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Keep seeing this arguement that ELO will be a nightmare for solo players. This is pretty much backwards. Solo elo players with a high score earned that by being decent at the team, without others to rely on. This can not be said for everyone on a team. If you have 8 people on a team that play regularly, odds are one of them isnt good. Now when the teams elo rating slowly but surely rises, the bad player will be more of a hinderance as the games get tougher, in effect, an all star team is dragging dead weight with them. And when the games really matter, that person wont be able to deliver. If a 7 man team is in the same game, and they get a pickup person to fill it with the same elo rating, chances are that solo player earned that rating.

From Ask the Devs:

Q: As we approach 12v12 games, how do you plan on addressing full premade groups? It can already be a struggle getting 7 of your friends to play with you, 11 will be even tougher. Are you going to do anything else that will either encourage people to group up more, or make it easier to form large 12 man premades?

A: Premade groups will have their ranks filled up by public players, similar to the current system when the match starts. There are some lances features incoming to help people organize before and during the game.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that you are wrong because PUG players are going to be used as filler for pre-made teams that do not meet the team limit cap. Therefore, what you described as being the impending doom for groups is actually the impending doom for PUG players.

Since many PUG players will, "Earn their own way," up the ELO ladder far enough to be playing on teams, then they will be carried up the ladder by pre-made teams. Once they queue and hit a non-premade team on their side vs pre-made on the other side... you know what will happen to their ELO.

ELO affects every one and the best bet is to not lose. The best way to ensure a victory is to join a pre-made team.

Kobold, on 12 February 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

So, so wrong.

Elo has nothing to do with the "combat score" system that PGI is planning on using as an e-peen stat (which they hope will replace K/D as the thing everyone brags about).

Elo ranking is ONLY about wins and losses. See: http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system



It is only about wins and losses. You win, your score goes up. You lose, it goes down. How much it goes up or down is based on the ratings of your opponents. Eventually, over time, the scores normalize and people mostly play against similarly matched opponents.

Actually, AFAIK PGI intends to use another metric by which personal ELO is calculated... not just win/loss.

Sifright, on 12 February 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

I'm of the opinion it is going to force premades to face premades.

or pugs that are capable of very high degree of skill in individual pilotage which will allow them to be on even footing.

Edit: I look forward to the day where I don't play with a group of pugs that die before getting more than 20 damage. :|

Then, stop PUGin because you can already win games...

[Thirdstar]

Zero Neutral, on 12 February 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Then, stop PUGin because you can already win games...

Admit it, you're pretty much just trolling at this point. There's really no other explanation.

[Zero Neutral]

Nahuris, on 12 February 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Which adds another point --- experienced players making secondary, or throw-away, accounts, so that they can jump on with their team.... but keep the ELO low enough to guarantee an easy game..... You just rotate around with which player is "taking one for the team" each battle, and you get to build huge strings of wins, while using the system to guarantee that you won't even accidentally face someone at your level.......

Nahuris

This practice contributes to the issue known as ELO HELL. Smurfs, as these low level secondary accounts are known, pull other players DOWN the ELO ranks due to things like trolling, do not care face, and testing new and possibly non-viable builds. Since a player does not have to worry about affecting their true stats, they can act a fool as much as they'd like. This hinders the advancement of other players, and is all the more reason to join a pre-made now, before ELO hits, in order to avoid getting smurf'd upon.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 12 February 2013 - 03:27 AM.

[Zero Neutral]

Thirdstar, on 12 February 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

Admit it, you're pretty much just trolling at this point. There's really no other explanation.

Nope, my opinion on this matter has not changed regardless of how many times you see me say it.

Stop PUGin, do yourself a favor...

Or keep PUGin and have nothing to complain about if and when ELO hits you like a ton of bricks.

IMO, a troll is some one who comes on to a thread to post some BS like, "Admit it, you're pretty much just trolling at this point. There's really no other explanation." You officially offer nothing to the conversation just a stupid comment. You see one little snippet and conclude, "Must be troll, I should comment by adding nothing of importance."

Edited by Zero Neutral, 12 February 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Zero Neutral, on 12 February 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Nope, my opinion on this matter has not changed regardless of how many times you see me say it.

Stop PUGin, do yourself a favor...

Or keep PUGin and have nothing to complain about if and when ELO hits you like a ton of bricks.

IMO, a troll is some one who comes on to a thread to post some BS like, "Admit it, you're pretty much just trolling at this point. There's really no other explanation." You officially offer nothing to the conversation just a stupid comment.

You got skillz and persistence, I'll admit. But I've seen better.

Still, 8/10 because of how many bites you've gotten.

[Critical Fumble]

Thirdstar, on 12 February 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

Admit it, you're pretty much just trolling at this point. There's really no other explanation.

You did see the other thread? His entire premise is that ELO has some absurd feature that makes it impossible to have fun as a solo drop player because, somehow, being matched with other players based on previous success makes your rung of the ladder "hell". Assuming there actually will be rigid rungs rather than value matching, and assuming that the indications that a premade team would have an inflated ELO value.

[Zero Neutral]

Thirdstar, on 12 February 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

You got skillz and persistence, I'll admit. But I've seen better.

Still, 8/10 because of how many bites you've gotten.

If I've gotten bites then I assume you are using the metaphor of fishing... which makes you a stupid fish that bites a hook because of miniscule brain capacity... thought it was a worm but it wasn't...

Do you see how stupid this makes you seem? How about instead of going for the worm that isn't there, you comment on some of the things that people say that contain more content? If some thing does not contain content that you can comment on, then don't comment just to say, "Whatevs troll." Or do, idc... "Whatevs troll," is not some kind of argument that you can back up with facts it is just a useless statement.

Critical Fumble, on 12 February 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

You did see the other thread? His entire premise is that ELO has some absurd feature that makes it impossible to have fun as a solo drop player because, somehow, being matched with other players based on previous success makes your rung of the ladder "hell". Assuming there actually will be rigid rungs rather than value matching, and assuming that the indications that a premade team would have an inflated ELO value.

Have you seen it, because if so you have missed the point entirely...

I do not assume rigid rungs. I assume the scenario that I described that you failed to comprehend. I could be wrong, as I always accept.

I do not assume that pre-made teams will have inflated ELO values.

I posted that thread with experience lending me precedent. I know the annals of ELO HELL.

-----------------------
Q: As we approach 12v12 games, how do you plan on addressing full premade groups? It can already be a struggle getting 7 of your friends to play with you, 11 will be even tougher. Are you going to do anything else that will either encourage people to group up more, or make it easier to form large 12 man premades?

A: Premade groups will have their ranks filled up by public players, similar to the current system when the match starts. There are some lances features incoming to help people organize before and during the game.
-----------------------

If a PUG player ascends the ranks and begins playing as filler for pre-mades, what will happen?

IMO it will be a similar situation, at times, like we have now where some of one team will be made of pre-made players, while the other team will be nearly full PUG. Which side has the advantage? I cannot see a situation where some one with enough time to do so would not choose to join a PUG. I do understand that personal choice is involved. I advocate for pre-made play.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 12 February 2013 - 03:40 AM.

[Aym]

Vahnn, on 11 February 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

I could see this, maybe for super hardcore teams or teams entering tournaments and such. But a group of 8 friends are not likely to kick one member because he's not as good as the rest. Especially if everyone has become good friends. I mean, you could, but isn't the point of grouping with friends to hang out with your friends? Just thinking about my LoL, HoN, CS, WoW, EQ, Rift, UT, NS, CoD days.

xD

My friends don't care to be dead weight. We get better.

[Zero Neutral]

Aym, on 12 February 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

My friends don't care to be dead weight. We get better.

I like your spirit.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 12 February 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Zero Neutral, on 12 February 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Words words words

Like I said. Persistent. I can admire that at a certain level. Still 8/10 though, because persistence is just repetition dressed up.

[Sifright]

Thirdstar, on 12 February 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

Like I said. Persistent. I can admire that at a certain level. Still 8/10 though, because persistence is just repetition dressed up.

[Critical Fumble]

Ok, here we go:

Assumption 1: people dropping in a group will not have their ELO boosted because of it.

Assumption 2: ELO will not be rigid Upon further review, I can no longer tell what you mean with that bit, as you say you don't think it will be rigid, but then use an example that implies it. I guess the example would force a certain value of solo drop players.

Assumption 3: people dropping as a group have a distinct advantage over those who do not.

Situation: People drop in a solo/group mismatched game. The team with the larger group has the advantage, in spite of having at least similar ELO. The larger group team wins. (Also, in your other thread, you mentioned getting stuck with crappy PUGs as result of losing in solo drops).

Now lets go through the problems with that reasoning:

• That situation would happen rarely, as ELO adjusts as you win or lose. That team would be bumped up and be more likely to face even better players, while the losers would be bumped down and be more likely to face worse players.
  
• Given the time for ELO to average out, a premade team would actually be worse than an equal value of solo droppers. (If group drops do actually give you an advantage)
  
• Taking an ELO hit and getting put on the. . . er. . . short drop ship would not actually be a lock-in, as the teams would have a more or less balanced ELO value, and if you're undervalued, you would have a significant effect on the matches.

I also doubt that pass/fail/win/loss is the only aspect of how ELO will be calculated, I get the distinct impression that the new scoring system will influence it as well.

And, well, frankly, PGI would be making a mistake to let teams of more than four swim with the general population. We'll see the same problems that made them give the standard queue team limits, and then made the 8-man queue turn into a sideshow.

[Zero Neutral]

Thirdstar, on 12 February 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

Garbage Garbage Garbage

Lookitwhuticando.