173 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Mr 144, on 14 February 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Double Gauss + Double PPC
Quad UAC/5s

Both Impossible. It's the same tonnage as the 'Pult and 5 tons less than the 'phract...it's not going to be able to magically do anything better.

An A with 2xUAC/5s, 2xSRM4, and 4xML is probablly the best that can be done with it.

The double AC/20 has positives, and negatives compared to the K2...purely pilot preference.

Mr 144

"Impossible", you say?

Challenge: accepted

Build 01

• Chassis: Endo Steel
  
• Powerplant: 195 XL (top speed: 54.0 kph)
  
• Heat Sinks: x10 DHS (x7 in Engine, x2 in LT, x1 in RT)
  
• Armor: 7.5 tons of Standard Armor
  
• Armament: x2 Gauss Rifles (x1 RA, x1 LA) with 1 ton of ammo (CT), x2 PPCs or x2 ER-PPCs (x1 LT, x1 RT)

Build 02

• Chassis: Endo Steel
  
• Powerplant: 260 XL (top speed: 64.8 kph)
  
• Heat Sinks: x10 DHS (all in engine)
  
• Armor: 7.5 tons of Standard Armor
  
• Armament: x4 UAC/5s (x2 RA, x2 LA) with 5 tons of ammo (x2 LL, x2 RL, x1 Head)

Each carries more armor (7.5 tons of Standard) than both the stock JM6-S (6.0 tons of Standard) and the stock JM6-DD (6.5 tons of FF), carries the requested weapons (even if some might consider them a bit light on ammo - Build 01 moreso than Build 02, obviously), and is still within the typical speed range for Heavy IS 'Mechs.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Is this a joke? Seeing people in those slow, poorly-armored deathtraps would be hilarious, but it's not going to sell them on Jagermechs.

[jay35]

Orzorn, on 14 February 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Quad UAC/5.

And people thought the Ilya was ridiculous!

Unless they do something silly with the slots or free tonnage to make it non-viable. In which case the chassis will just gather dust and be a waste of time. As much as the idea of a long-range ballistic compliment to LRM boats sounds annoying, it's still a valid role and will be good to have a better ballistic platform than the Cataphract. I might be interested in it.

Edited by jay35, 15 February 2013 - 04:54 AM.

[Mr 144]

I know I'm being negative in the Jager threads, but that's just because I really want to like this mech. It has a lot of pluses, but no way to use them. Consider the following...

Side Torso Wings/Shields:


From the artwork, these look like an excellent way to shield damage from the massive CT ala Awesome arm shields. If these are the side torso hitboxes, then frontal damage is almost impossible (good for dakka dakka), but flanking damage is extreme (bad for XL use). See the issue? In order to carry ballistics, an XL is almost required, but that negates any of the benifits to using the shields for CT protection. If the 'shield' hitboxes are part of the arm (doubtful from the artwork) then twist shielding with an XL is great, but of course being so arm dependant AND using them as shields isn't exactly optimum either. I think the model/hitboxes are going to be a catch 22 in usefulness. While making ideal shields, the only time you'd want to use them is when you can't due to arm dependence and XL use.

Competitive 8-mans:
I just can't see the role here. Already the CTF-3D or Stalker are the ideal 'snipers'. Dakka Dakka is barely acceptable, and if it is, both the Ilya and the CTF-4X can do much better. It 'could' replace the AC/20 whack-a-pult, but that comes down more to pilot perogative on speed vs. survivability. The Gauss Cat has already been replaced, and the JS7 will not dethrone the 3D. Medium mechs will be capable of better manuverability, higher alphas, AND better heat efficiency than anything I've worked out for the JS7...a real consideration in RHOD formats. I also cannot see anything to compete with the splat-cat alpha's.

Fun Factor / Versatility:
No doubt, the JS7-A has some interesting fun possibilities mixing ballistics and missles, but tonnage hurts enough to make most desired builds not feasible. I think this variant will be the ONLY realistic non-gimped chassis even in 4-mans (or less). Literally anything that the other variants can do another heavy chassis, or medium, can do more effeciently.

Dakka Dakka:
For the upteenth time, quad UACs are not viable !!!!! There is no where near enough tonnage for ammo...period. Do anything you want...gimp your armor...low-ball your speed with a mini-XL...It just WILL NOT WORK. The CTF-4X even at it's speed is still king of Dakka Dakka. The only thing that can change this is a heat tweak to AC/2s...literally nothing else will help. Even with upcoming machine gun tweaks, the chassis variants will still not be useful, as the needed 'punch' to compliment any such loadout are not available in hardpoints on the variants that can boat them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, I really want to like it...and I'm stockpiling C-Bills to insta buy 'em...but I just don't see the purpose other than 'new and shiny'. Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm a MWO mechbay addict and have done all the math already...

Mr 144

Edit: mainly typos and formatting

Edited by Mr 144, 15 February 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Mr 144]

Strum Wealh, on 15 February 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

"Impossible", you say?

Challenge: accepted

Build 01

• Chassis: Endo Steel
  
• Powerplant: 195 XL (top speed: 54.0 kph)
  
• Heat Sinks: x10 DHS (x7 in Engine, x2 in LT, x1 in RT)
  
• Armor: 7.5 tons of Standard Armor
  
• Armament: x2 Gauss Rifles (x1 RA, x1 LA) with 1 ton of ammo (CT), x2 PPCs or x2 ER-PPCs (x1 LT, x1 RT)

Build 02

• Chassis: Endo Steel
  
• Powerplant: 260 XL (top speed: 64.8 kph)
  
• Heat Sinks: x10 DHS (all in engine)
  
• Armor: 7.5 tons of Standard Armor
  
• Armament: x4 UAC/5s (x2 RA, x2 LA) with 5 tons of ammo (x2 LL, x2 RL, x1 Head)

Each carries more armor (7.5 tons of Standard) than both the stock JM6-S (6.0 tons of Standard) and the stock JM6-DD (6.5 tons of FF), carries the requested weapons (even if some might consider them a bit light on ammo - Build 01 moreso than Build 02, obviously), and is still within the typical speed range for Heavy IS 'Mechs.

Yep, I stand by my words...

Example #1:
Double Gauss.....and 1 ton of ammo!!!!!!!! you gotta be kidding me Have fun with 5 whole shots.
Double ERPPC...I can support 2xPPC with 13 DHS...no way 10 is enough, much less the ER versions.

Verdict: Impossible

Example #2:
Quad UACs with 5 tons of ammo...again, lulz

From experience with both 'phracts and Atlases, 5 tons of UAC ammo is a nice sweet spot to support 2....you want to support 4 with that? lulz...good luck.

A triple UAC Ilya carries 8-10 tons of ammo AND has 3xMLs for backup and/or Alphas.

Verdict: Impossible

Final Thoughts:
7.5 tons of armor...any 'phract build worth it's scrap value carries 12 or more tons of armor. Not only are the builds you listed completely horibad in heat management and ammo...to the point where they are as bad as or equal to trial mech garbage...but they are fragile too.

Challenger: Failed
Original Verdict: Upheld

Mr 144

[John MatriX82]

Quad AC5 should be possible (5-6 tons of ammo, no mlas as backup), xl255, endo, DHS (only those in the engine).

However I think this mech isn't going to be tremendously worth with Ilyas, CTF 4X and Catapults around. Dual gauss is possible, although the thing will be able to carry 6 tons of ammo and only 2 mediums as a backup; a K2 weighting the same can sacrifice armor on the arms to achieve 7 tons of ammo or for a couple more of backup weapons, having the gauss more protected in the torsoes; an Ilya or a 4X with a similar configuration has more viability and arm yaw, which shouldn't be available with the Jager.

The only interesting setup I got out so far is on the A:
Dual UAC5+5 tons, Dual SRM4+1 ton, quad MLAS, 14 DHS, ENDO and XL 280.

As Mr144 said, though, XL viability on this thing looks to be the same of going around in an Awesome or a Cataphract.

[GODzillaGSPB]

You can already build these in the Excel Mechlab, which takes all the current values for the basics of MWO into account (hardpoints, size, weight, heat, damage etc.) and I can tell you...that mech is a bit**!

The standard configs all have HUUUUGE problems with heat. Those two ac2 alone are hot as hell. Then you add medium lasers on top of it. Oh dear. I tried several configurations and I was only able to create one good version. It has the alpha damage of a medium mech (30), but good DPS and it runs rather fast, but to do that it needs an XL-300 engine. If you go for standard it'll be slow and much hotter. With the xl it's pretty good, heat-wise.

But it is definitely not the uber-mech some believe it to be.

[Odin]

Good points Mr 144.

Really looking forward to the Jäger, but I have my doubts about it being a "good" Mech beside having a cool looking fellow ....having all those, how do they call themselves?, "competitive players".
Main weakness is the lack of armour and 65tons 's just no match for the Mechs we have already in.

Still, like the art job and hope PGI wants to make it, catch its own niche in MWO.




Odin

[Strum Wealh]

Mr 144, on 15 February 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Yep, I stand by my words...

Example #1:
Double Gauss.....and 1 ton of ammo!!!!!!!! you gotta be kidding me Have fun with 5 whole shots.
Double ERPPC...I can support 2xPPC with 13 DHS...no way 10 is enough, much less the ER versions.

Verdict: Impossible

Example #2:
Quad UACs with 5 tons of ammo...again, lulz

From experience with both 'phracts and Atlases, 5 tons of UAC ammo is a nice sweet spot to support 2....you want to support 4 with that? lulz...good luck.

A triple UAC Ilya carries 8-10 tons of ammo AND has 3xMLs for backup and/or Alphas.

Verdict: Impossible

Final Thoughts:
7.5 tons of armor...any 'phract build worth it's scrap value carries 12 or more tons of armor. Not only are the builds you listed completely horibad in heat management and ammo...to the point where they are as bad as or equal to trial mech garbage...but they are fragile too.

Challenger: Failed
Original Verdict: Upheld

Mr 144

Au contraire, Monsieur 144 - you seem to be using the term "impossible" where you should be using the term "impractical".

Both of the builds I've presented are certainly possible (which was the actual challenge), though even I will admit that they may not be the most practical loadouts for the chassis.

Therefore, I contend that the challenge - merely to prove that it was possible (not necessarily effective or practical, but merely possible) for the builds suggested to be created as functional JagerMech builds - was indeed successfully resolved.

[Mr 144]

Strum Wealh, on 15 February 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

Au contraire, Monsieur 144 - you seem to be using the term "impossible" where you should be using the term "impractical".

Both of the builds I've presented are certainly possible (which was the actual challenge), though even I will admit that they may not be the most practical loadouts for the chassis.

Therefore, I contend that the challenge - merely to prove that it was possible (not necessarily effective or practical, but merely possible) for the builds suggested to be created as functional JagerMech builds - was indeed successfully resolved.

Fair enough it's just that I've countered these wild build thoughts in soooo many Jager threads I, for once, used the wrong term. I usually state 'not viable' which I personally equate with not possible. Kudos to you for calling me out on my slip My overall point still stands and you know it...lol

Mr 144

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Man, this sperging about semantics sure does make the Jagermech good!

[Sleepy Head]

Fellows, would it be a wise or idiotic idea to an XL engine in? The torso isn't very wide looking and since it doesn't have too much tonnage I need something light since I'm going to toss the Medium lasers and AutoCannon/2's for AutoCcannon/5's which will take up some extra weight.

[Cest7]

Sooo research and speculation...

• JM6-S == 5,232,425 c-bills? 2xAC5 2xAC2 2xMLA
  
• JM6-A == 5,413,925 c-bills? 2xAC2 2xLRM15 2xMLA?
  
• JM6-DD= 11,386,925 c-bills? XL FF 2xCase 2xUAC5 2xAC2 2xMPL

Edited by Cest7, 15 February 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[KKRonkka]

One of the coolest looking mechs ever. This is so going to find a place in be my garage.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

The biggest thing I see this doing is letting people that don't want to buy a hero mech run 3 UAC/5s. While running 4 is amusing and I'll be doing it for a few games after the thing comes out. You're better off dropping one of them as 3 UAC/5s chainfired will fire constantly without ever doublefiring, thus rendering the 4th pointless. (this also means you have 9 more tons to play with strum, BACK TO THE MECHLAB)

[Mr 144]

Astroniomix, on 15 February 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

The biggest thing I see this doing is letting people that don't want to buy a hero mech run 3 UAC/5s. While running 4 is amusing and I'll be doing it for a few games after the thing comes out. You're better off dropping one of them as 3 UAC/5s chainfired will fire constantly without ever doublefiring, thus rendering the 4th pointless. (this also means you have 9 more tons to play with strum, BACK TO THE MECHLAB)

Sigh.....and 3xUACs will not beat the Ilya...5 tons is huge in Dakka Dakka...

Mr 144

Edit: and for those without the 'hero mech' in-game testing shows the 2xUAC+2XAC/5 CTF-4X superior to the 3xUAC+3xML CTF-IM. 3xUAC with limited ammo will not surpass the 4X in either DPS, armor, or longevity.

Edited by Mr 144, 15 February 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

Mr 144, on 15 February 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Sigh.....and 3xUACs will not beat the Ilya...5 tons is huge in Dakka Dakka...

Mr 144

It doesn't need to beat it, only mimic.

[CDLord HHGD]

So reading through Sarna, there seems to be three distinct differences between the variants. One has ballistics, one is primarily energy, and one has a few missiles. I can't wait to see what PGI comes up with!

[EmeraldSongbird]

miscreant, on 14 February 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

The JM6-S looks pretty powerful:
Autocannon 5 2 Autocannon 2 2 Medium Laser 2

I'm looking forward to this mech. At 65 tons, it should be quite a wrecking ball.

Discuss.

That's exactly what my Cataphract 4X is when I'm in the mood for more dakka dakka.

[Mr 144]

Astroniomix, on 15 February 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

It doesn't need to beat it, only mimic.

Bah...edited to clarify while you posted...it can't even mimic it

Edited by Mr 144, 15 February 2013 - 06:37 AM.