34 replies to this topic

[El Death Smurf]

i see a lot of Jagermechs and Cataphracts with AC5 in groups of 4. lots. and i dont get it.
lets look at some numbers.
AC5
4slots.
8tons.
1heat.
1.7cooldown.
30 shots/ton
540/1620 range


AC10
7slots
12tons
3 heat
2.5 cooldown
15 shots/ton
450/1350 range
that's 90 less range, but 4 less tons and more ammo efficent, and less than a second longer to fire. 1 more heat.

UAC5
5slots
9tons
1 heat
1.1 cooldown (x2 shots if you want to risk a jam)
25 shots/ton
600/1800 range
weighs in at 1 more ton and 1 more crit space, but 2 of these are arguably superior in every way to 4 AC5, and 3 of them can chain fire better than 4AC5. requires mild skill to not jam. --count to 1... and pull the trigger, count to 1 pull the trigger. or put in chian fire mode.--

Gauss Rifle
7 slots
15 tons
1 heat
4 cool down
10 shots per ton
660/1980
even with its fragility and longer cycle time, 1 ways less than 2 AC5, and is basically as heat neutral as it gets. ammo is far more effective in terms of potential damage and consumption.

AC20
i wont make a point here beacuse of its limitations in placement, but its better in every way as well, even at 500m
\

in summation.

1-2 AC5 may have applications in terms of weight, but frankly an ac10 is better than 2 ac5.
1 AC5 is fine, 1 UAC5 is better, and 2UAC5 and 1 AC5 is fine if you have lower arm actuators (cataphract), but want to chin fire AC5.

Edited by El Death Smurf, 24 March 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Th0rsten]

I tend to disagree at least the part that four ac5 are useless. While it is a big investment in terms of tonnage, it is, at least in my oppinion, really worth it.

I run my 4x with four ac5. Every 1.7 seconds I am able to put 20 damage on a single spot up to 540 meters. Even at double the distance it is still 10 damage on one spot.

If you have a good position and consistenly fire you make A LOT of damage and, if your aim with balistics is good enough, get a lot of kills.

Edited by Th0rsten, 24 March 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Comparing 1 AC10 to 2 AC5's is pretty common, but not simple.

The 10 is smaller and lighter, and generates less heat than the pair of 5's, but the 5'***** for the same damage faster. The 5's are also quite effective at MUCH longer ranges.

If you're only brawling, and have a lot of other uses for tonnage and slots, then the 10's may be a better deal. But if you're laying down fire at long ranges and don't have a lot of other hardpoints to fill, the 5's are clearly superior.

[Gunnr75]

maybe slightly off topic but i prefer the uac/5 over the regular 5 in every situation. singe, double, especially triple. three uac5s are a chainsaw. the volume of damage they throw down range is awesome

[Th0rsten]

Gunnr75, on 24 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

maybe slightly off topic but i prefer the uac/5 over the regular 5 in every situation. singe, double, especially triple. three uac5s are a chainsaw. the volume of damage they throw down range is awesome

directly compared to the uac5, the ac5 indeed does not look too good. The only reason what makes me choose ac5 instead is that i am too trigger happy for uac most of the time. Chainfiring three does never cause jam (don't have an ilya but read that often enough) but most of the time I prefer a reliable weapon. A small RoF buff would be nice to make them a better option though.

[MisterPlanetarian]

I prefer 4x AC2 over AC5's, You have a little more heat. But you stand at 1.3 heat efficiency with only ac2's firing and 14 DBL Heatsinks. Thats about on par with a Large Laser stalker.

Not to mention you can put 18 dps on someones CT in a brawl.

[El Death Smurf]

MisterPlanetarian, on 24 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I prefer 4x AC2 over AC5's, You have a little more heat. But you stand at 1.3 heat efficiency with only ac2's firing and 14 DBL Heatsinks. Thats about on par with a Large Laser stalker.

Not to mention you can put 18 dps on someones CT in a brawl.

i agree with this, but i didnt bring ac2 into my initial debate since the trade offs of high heat and spead of damage are incomparable.
also, i think its 16 dps (2acx4x2shots/sec). but i run 5 on my jagermech-DD and average between 300-600 damage. very respectabel, but its all over the place on anything that goes over 60kph

Wintersdark, on 24 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Comparing 1 AC10 to 2 AC5's is pretty common, but not simple.

The 10 is smaller and lighter, and generates less heat than the pair of 5's, but the 5'***** for the same damage faster. The 5's are also quite effective at MUCH longer ranges.

If you're only brawling, and have a lot of other uses for tonnage and slots, then the 10's may be a better deal. But if you're laying down fire at long ranges and don't have a lot of other hardpoints to fill, the 5's are clearly superior.

i still call BS. even at 800m 4ac5 is not better enough than 2 ac10 to merrit the 8 tons. after ammo, you could have eithr a PPC or ER Large laser, depending on the mech, and still have a mostly heat neutral build with engine Dheatsinks alone, and that, for me breaks the arguments in favor of 4ac5.

Edited by El Death Smurf, 24 March 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Gunnr75, on 24 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

maybe slightly off topic but i prefer the uac/5 over the regular 5 in every situation. singe, double, especially triple. three uac5s are a chainsaw. the volume of damage they throw down range is awesome

HECK YES.

I've rolled with 4 in my Jäger too. Can barely carry any ammo, but that one mech you rip into tiny paperclip sized pieces before he can even press R is totally friggin awesome.

[armyof1]

El Death Smurf, on 24 March 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

i still call BS. even at 800m 4ac5 is not better enough than 2 ac10 to merrit the 8 tons. after ammo, you could have eithr a PPC or ER Large laser, depending on the mech, and still have a mostly heat neutral build with engine Dheatsinks alone, and that, for me breaks the arguments in favor of 4ac5.

2xAC5 has one clear advantage over 1xAC10, and that is DPS. If you simultaneously fire the 2xAC5, it would give you the same focused damage as one AC10, but you can fire the 2xAC5 every 1.7 seconds, the AC10 you have to wait 2.5 secs. 2xAC5 has 5.88 DPS, AC10 has 4 DPS, so 2xAC5 has 47% higher DPS than AC10. Fact is the 2xAC5 even generates less heat than firing the AC10 even at maximum rate of fire for both weapons 1.18 HPS vs the 1.2 HPS of AC10. A minimal difference really, but since 2xAC5 has higher DPS you'd expect them to generate the higher HPS, but it's almost the same. And on top of that you get a bit better range and faster travel time. So depending on how much weight you have to spare the 2xAC5 does have some clear advantages compared to AC10 for the cost of one crit slot and 4 ton. That's the weight and crit slot you'd save if you remove a LL and replace it with a ML, which might or might not suit your build.

Edited by armyof1, 25 March 2013 - 12:53 AM.

[zraven7]

Kiiyor, on 24 March 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

HECK YES.

I've rolled with 4 in my Jäger too. Can barely carry any ammo, but that one mech you rip into tiny paperclip sized pieces before he can even press R is totally friggin awesome.

This is a funny mental picture to me.

enemy mech walks into site

Jagermech: "He's mine, guys!"

enemy mech: "err, wha...?

jagermech blasts the bejeezus out of enemy mech

Jagermech: "Ok, guys, I'm spent. See you at base!"

[Elyam]

I haven't been able to do any experiemtns with 4 AC/5 vs 2 AC10, but I have on the Centurion with 2 AC/5 vs 1 AC/10. I am still a strong proponent of the AC/10, but when I have the option, I find 2 AC/5 to work better. The rate of fire, projectile speed and arc feel better for the way I fight. This suprised when I first tried it on the CN9-D, but it convinced me. I'm looking forward to trying the larger experiment on the Jager S soon.

Edited by Elyam, 25 March 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Kiiyor]

zraven7, on 25 March 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

This is a funny mental picture to me.

enemy mech walks into site

Jagermech: "He's mine, guys!"

enemy mech: "err, wha...?

jagermech blasts the bejeezus out of enemy mech

Jagermech: "Ok, guys, I'm spent. See you at base!"

I see you jest! You're actually pretty close to the truth though!

More than any other mech, it is also completely dependant on the fickle god of random number generation. Let's call him Ranblor.

Ranblor can bless you with a horrifying torrent of unending firepower, or jam all 4 of your magnificent guns after the first shot. It's like playing mechanised Russian roulette if you've triumphantly jumped out of cover to engage an atlas.

"MUAH HA HA HA! Foolish atlas, you have blundered into my tra-*weapons jammed. All of them. Forever.*- oh. Ah, this is embarrassing."

[Zordicron]

Pair an AC2 with an UAC5. Chain fire. never jam, or only like once a match if you trigger at the wrong time unlucky.
2 AC5 is 16 tons. AC2 +UAC5 is 15 tons. Even in chain fire, you get more DPS.

I put that into each arm of my 4x. In like a dozen matches i think i jammed twice. because my ping is all over the place, normal use of UAC5 is almost impossible. With this setup, even bad ping works out because the chain fire with the AC2 puts the fire rate of the UAC5 just behind enough to remove the jam chance(mostly).

I tried to do this on a jager loadout, but the 5 tons you get from a 4x makes a massive difference in armor and ammo count, unless you really turret mode the jager with a bunk engine, or go XL which removes durability. When you open up with both arms, people start to backpeddle. its a lot of ballistic blowing up in their face.

[Ryebear]

2 AC/5s link fired from the same location is probably my favourite single 'weapon' there is:

Compared to:
AC/2s: Incredibly hot, damage tends to spray around different locations.
UAC/5s: Firerate is inconsistent with jams and you cant fit two on a single mount for most mechs and an ammo hog
AC/10: Same damage, lower range, slightly slower projectile, almost half the fire rate, great ammo efficiency though
Gauss: Incredible fragile and dangerous to carry for most mechs, ends up heavier after stocking ammo, very slow fire rate but has long range and great single location damage
AC/20: Slowwwww projectile, same-ish weight after ammo, slow fire rate, have to give up XL engine under most circumstances making it unwieldy, can fit on many mechs. EXPECTIONAL burst damage

Generally speaking Ill take 2 UACs if ballistic hardpoints are split up, 1 AC/10 if I only have 1 available slot or 2 AC/5s if 2 slots are in the same location.

[Kit10]

I would've defended the 4x AC5 except I began using 5x AC2 on my Jager and it's simply "better". Every 2 seconds you're putting out the equivalent damage of an AC20 shot from an incredible range. I experience some limited heat issues if I try to full turretmode and have no backup weapons due to 6 tons of ammo.

For a pilot with good situational awareness and ability to find nice fields of view (which the two newest maps offer a lot of) the reach and recycle rate of massed AC2s are very effective for both sustained and burst damage. I had to adjust my playstyle to maximize the build, but I'm generally racking up 2 kills and 3+ assists each game. I don't try stupid stuff like going head to head with Atlases, but if you overheat within my line of sight it's a death sentence. Pinpoint 10 dps will simply shred whatever part of your armor I stick my mouse over.

[Culler]

Kit10, on 27 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

I would've defended the 4x AC5 except I began using 5x AC2 on my Jager and it's simply "better". Every 2 seconds you're putting out the equivalent damage of an AC20 shot from an incredible range. I experience some limited heat issues if I try to full turretmode and have no backup weapons due to 6 tons of ammo.

For a pilot with good situational awareness and ability to find nice fields of view (which the two newest maps offer a lot of) the reach and recycle rate of massed AC2s are very effective for both sustained and burst damage. I had to adjust my playstyle to maximize the build, but I'm generally racking up 2 kills and 3+ assists each game. I don't try stupid stuff like going head to head with Atlases, but if you overheat within my line of sight it's a death sentence. Pinpoint 10 dps will simply shred whatever part of your armor I stick my mouse over.

Your math is off a bit. Firing 5 AC/2s at max dps is 20 dps (5 guns x 2 damage per shot x 2 shots per second.) It's hitting someone with an AC/20 every second.

However, firing at full volume you overheat in 8.08 seconds, after all the pilot skills. That's a little hot for me.

Also, double AC/5s is nice dakka but incredibly heavy for what it does. At 16 tons before ammo, it's a lot. Has the highest dps though if you consider it a single ballistic weapon and nice range properties though. Not a bad pick by a long shot.

Edited by Culler, 27 March 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Kit10]

Quite right, thank you, I keep thinking it's 1 dps (in error). But yeah, that's more or less my point, mass AC2s is a 1-trick pony one (to my knowledge) a single mech subtype, but it's a really great trick.

[RedrumnCoke]

One other point if favor of dual ac10s vs quad ac5s is the 10s are better crit seekers as if one of them crits it will destroy an internal component for sure (unless it is an ac20 with 18 health).

[Nine-Ball]

Using dual-AC10s on a cata-3d.

The trick to maximizing the effect of a dual AC10 (or 5s, 20s... 2s are useless) is to time its firing with your other weapons. Ensure that you are able to keep down a consistant rate of fire while mixing in the AC10 shots.

For me its mixing in the 2 AC10 shots with my 2- double medium laser shots. Medium laser, then AC10.. rinse and repeat. Great at heat management, and also gives you the ability to switch to firing just your AC10s if heat is becoming a problem.

[3rdworld]

Understanding the quad ac/5 is pretty easy.

Better ammo than UAC, Less Crits and Less weight. And it is the largest ballistic you can run 4 of them.

You are also shooting an AC/20 every 1.7 seconds. That is pretty gnarly

You can do the same with 2x UAC and 2x AC/5 but your uacs will be chilling for .6 seconds a shot and you have to carry more ammo with heavier weapons (uacs only carry 25per vs 30per on the AC/5).

I personally prefer the 2xUAC 2xAC/2 because dakka. But I don't really see the issue with the 4xAC5 in terms of how you use it. It is less DPS than other builds but if your intention is to shoot all 4, it is not bad at all.

Also the timing is perfect if you chain fire them.

Edited by 3rdworld, 29 March 2013 - 05:19 AM.