23 replies to this topic

[Zyzyx66]

Hi all,

I've been playing my first few games of Battletech ttg recently (very late to the party, I know - been a MW fan since MW2). While I'm having a blast, and it's a great game, I had a number of ideas for streamlining all that junk that needs to be kept in memory (or written down) all the time. I thought I'd post it up, to see what people thought, and whether anyone would like to try it out in their own games. I'm also interested in any changes others have come up with that streamline the gameplay, or otherwise update it.

Firstly, I don't understand torso twisting. To me, the wide front arc seems like it already factors in the sort of torso movement a 'mech could make in the allotted time. It also makes rear attacks far less likely, which overall reduces the strategy involved. On top of that, it favours Assault 'mechs, or other 'mechs with slow speeds, and reduces the effectiveness of faster lights and those with jumpjets.

So first off, I canned the torso twist - it's nothing more than an additional layer of complexity the game doesn't need and (in my mind) already accounts for.

The larger change though, was in the way turns are conducted. I had an idea that makes initiative matter more out of the movement phase, as well as buffing up smaller tonnage 'mechs. Here's how it goes:

Initiative happens normally. Movement happens normally. The rest is modified. First, the weapons phase isn't split up. Instead, players take turns resolving all firing one 'mech at a time, starting with the lowest tonnage mechs (highest initiative goes first) and working up. Heat is factored as it occurs. What this essentially does is simulates the speed and reflexes of lighter 'mechs, by allowing them to resolve their attacks before anyone else. They fire weapons, apply damage and resolve crits one 'mech at a time. This means that Jenner could potentially knock out the Atlas' AC/20 before it brings it to bear.

This does modify the fundamentals of the game, but I think it may do it in an advantageous way. It improves the usefulness of lighter 'mechs (because they have initiative in battle), gives the players more choice (which 50 ton 'mech do I resolve first?), drastically reduces the amount of stuff you need to remember (which speeds up the gameplay), and allows players to have larger games with a better distribution of weights.

Because I'm only a newbie to the TT, I have no idea how this affects Combined Arms etc. So I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or additional suggestions? Have you gone through a similar process of changing things up too? Are there other rules you think can be improved?

Edited by Zyzyx66, 05 June 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[Sarcastro01]

The changes you're making when it comes to initiative and light mechs (I think) makes them overly powerful. Light mechs are not supposed to brawl with anything outside their weight class. They are eyes and ears of a force, not a swarm of piranha. The huge to hit penalty they generate from their fast speeds makes up for their lack of staying power. They don't need another boost. They need to intelligently pick their fights. That Jenner should not be hoping he takes out the AC/20 because he gets to go first shooting. He should be asking for a change of pants if he's still in front of the AC/20 when it decides to go off.

Also, it's the pilot, not the mech that should be the determining factor for initiative. Under your system, the new pilot fresh out of school who gets assigned a light mech for training will always be faster (read "better") than the grizzled vet who worked hard to earn his assignment in an assault mech.

I'm trying to figure out how you think the change reduces the amount of stuff you need to remember? When fire's declared, most folks dump everything in if they have a decent chance. Folks sniping at long range typically only have one or two weapons and even it bigger games it's not that hard to remember who's shooting what. A D6 next to the mech showing its' move modifier on the side you're torso twisting to seems to work just fine for book keeping. Maybe it's just the fact that the game is new for you that it seems overwhelming. After a few games it will be second nature to you.

Under your rules, what happens when, say two 30 ton mechs face off? Who goes first in that scenario for firing (because now it's a HUGE deal instead of just calling everything simultaneous.)

As for torso twists, it's a way for mechs to continue using their faster, forward movement and still keep some weapons to bear on a target. It allows those slow assault mechs a way to at least get something pointed at those pesky light mechs (they certainly won't be outrunning them.) Also, torso twisting does not have an effect on how easy it is to get a back shot. If the shot goes through the rear hex side of a model it's a back shot regardless of whether the unit torso twisted or not (use the models feet for reference, not the torso.)

I know you said you're new to the TTG so I'll leave you with a scenario to think about under your proposed changes - Our bout will be an Awesome vs a Cicada (80 tons vs 40.) If we disallow the torso twist and always allow the Cicada to fire first, it's going to be a long day for the Awesome pilot unless the Cicada has to run across an open field with zero terrain (and even then it's going to be a challenge with the huge +4 to hit modifier.) Once the Cicada crosses behind the Awesome's 3-9 line he's pretty much screwed. Those turns where the Cicada loses initiative he just pops into cover. When he wins he should be immune to any return fire as he pops back into the rear arc. Yes, there are lots of variables and there's always a chance of rolling the 11 or 12 the Awesome should need to hit each turn but since he's never firing first there's just as good a chance of him getting his head popped off before ever getting to do anything!

[Karl Streiger]

I think the same as Sarcastro01 - it is the pilot who "made" the reflexes of a battlemech

- however i think it isn't the worst idea to "upgrade" the moveability of lighter units. As written some topics below - i'm working on another rule set...using some modified rules from a lot of different games.
- considering your post the three relevant points are

* a elite pilot is hardly a better pilot or shooter as a normal pilot (a normal pilot has trained for years) - but he is better in reading the tactical situation on the field - maybe he is able to perform multiple actions per time

* thats it there are different action types - for example using activ sensors to lock on a target - or aimed shots - only for actions should the dice be rolled - the rest should be resolved by stats every mech (size, speed, weight class, range...) has

* third is to make lighter units more mobile -> easy turning:
allow mechs to turn without costs when they moved a little bit
A light mech howver can turn a single hex side without costs
medium mech needs to move a single hex before turning 1 hex
heavy mechs need 2
assault mechs need 3 hex to turn without costs...

[Zyzyx66]

I see your point, and that's why I decided to post my thoughts for you more advanced players to point out the stupidity

The reason the piloting skills wouldn't work is because piloting skill for the majority of units will fall into the same point spread group. That's why I thought perhaps the weight of the mech as an abstraction of their ability to adapt to changing battlefield conditions. Also, they're already elite pilots. A more experienced mechwarrior would really just be more experienced at reading the battle.

ed: beat me to it!

I understand with the torso twisting - I knew it was based off the feet. That particular rule subtraction I thought worked because I feel (at least in my newbie state) that it does nothing but add another piece of complexity to the game that doesn't need to be there, and it means that slower mechs are actually at some sort of actual disadvantage by being slow. I know they also get hit more often, but that's more than made up for in armour and return fire capability.

Although now I think about it, I'm seeing your point in that a change of firing arc in the firing phase is probably necessary.

In that scenario, wouldn't the Atlas have been screwed before anyway? The Cicada firing from the Atlas's rear would mean that in the actual rules or my mutated version, the Atlas wouldn't be able to fire anyway. Remember, movement is the same as it always was. All that would change is the (very small) chance that the Atlas takes a nasty crit before it has a chance to ruin the Cicada's day. These changes would only really effect larger scale battles, with multiple mechs/lances per side.

In the case of choosing which 30t would go first, intitiative would prevail for the first 'mech, then the opposing team goes with their lightest (picking between ties), then initiative's next heaviest (picking between ties), etc. So if A (initiative) has one 20t, two 30ts, and b has 1 25t, one 30t, A fires the 20t, B fires the 25t, A fires one of the 30ts, B fires their 30t, A fires their other 30t.

I'm sure you're absolutely right in that it's all due to my newness, I'm just playing around with the concepts to find more streamlined ways to play

Edited by Zyzyx66, 05 June 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[Sarcastro01]

Zyzyx66, on 05 June 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

In that scenario, wouldn't the Atlas have been screwed before anyway? The Cicada firing from the Atlas's rear would mean that in the actual rules or my mutated version, the Atlas wouldn't be able to fire anyway. Remember, movement is the same as it always was. All that would change is the (very small) chance that the Atlas takes a nasty crit before it has a chance to ruin the Cicada's day. These changes would only really effect larger scale battles, with multiple mechs/lances per side.

If you allow for a torso twist the Awesome is going to get to fire at least one PPC unless the Cicada gets directly behind him instead of just behind the 3-9 line. W/O the torso twist the Cicada has to maneuver very little to get short range shots with no return fire. Allowing a torso twist means the Cicada will need to be a lot more careful with his maneuver to both minimize incoming fire AND to make sure he can make a decent escape move if he doesn't win initiative every turn.

[RangerRob]

If you are looking to streamline the game I whole-heartedly suggest you check out the Quick Strike rules found in the Strategic Operations book. (Not to be confused with Quick Start rules...which are Battletech.)

It makes the game so fast you can almost run a company in the same time it takes you to run a single mech.

Sample record sheet for Quick Strike.


Keeps the flavor of Battletech, and each mech is still unique enough to be different.

PDF with brief description of the record sheets and sheets for all the mechs in the starter box.
http://bg.battletech..._Mech_Cards.pdf

Edited by RangerRob, 08 June 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[JHare]

If you want modified rules. Here's the couple we used to speed up the game and address some other concerns we had.

We allowed a rule for either taking time to aim or firing snap shots. Snap shots were +2 to hit. You could fire and resolve damage before the other unit shot (if both used snap shot they effectively cancelled out). It made for some interesting moments when units would alpha strike and snap shot to try and get some breathing space. You could knock a mech over before it could fire.

Taking aim was the opposite. You fire after all other attacks had been resolved, but you got a -1 to hit. So taking aim was dangerous in case you lost weapons from damage that turn. It sped up the early parts of the game where all the mechs had good armor.

We also had extremely vindictive critical hits rules. No random rolling. It was based on weapon type and damage done to internals. It made lasers a lot less effective than other weapons after armor had been breached. It made autocannons and missiles terrifying.
Crits: 1 crit per missile (all types)
1 crit per laser hit (so 8 damage from a LL still only did 1 crit)
1 crit per point damage for AC (so an ac/2 round doing 2 damage to internals did 2 critical hits
1 crit per 5pts PPC damage
1 crit per 2pts pulse laser damage

Both sets of rules sped up the game. It was very common to see mechs explode from ammo.

A stupid fun rule for speeding up a game: If your mech dies form engine hits. It automatically Stackpooled (engine explosion). We played this just for laughs usually

Edited by JHare, 08 June 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

Those critical rules look fun.

[OfTheDark]

As other have said I think torso twisting is necessary to let slower heavies actually get shots off. If you are in a light you get a high defense from your speed already. If you maneuver properly yes a torso twist will still let your target fire at you but you are cutting out about half his firepower as it is.

I actually like the complexity of the tabletop game. But then I play Warhammer and Warmachine too...If I want simplistic I will go get a game in with them

[Karl Streiger]

RangerRob, on 08 June 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

If you are looking to streamline the game I whole-heartedly suggest you check out the Quick Strike rules found in the Strategic Operations book. (Not to be confused with Quick Start rules...which are Battletech.) It makes the game so fast you can almost run a company in the same time it takes you to run a single mech.

The QS rules have two major drawbacks - you have no real GVS - that whats make most fun in a company size battle - movement is the same only the weapon declaration and weapon resolving is more streamline same as with the damage and critcial system. But it take what made for me most fun. Players are really exited to see their opponent use a pencil to dish out armor circles.

The second drawback - it is to linear. ClanMechs can deal with most enemys with a single salvo, heat is to simple too.

[WiCkEd]

JHare, on 08 June 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

A stupid fun rule for speeding up a game: If your mech dies form engine hits. It automatically Stackpooled (engine explosion). We played this just for laughs usually

We called this "Smoking Hole Syndrom" and did it in our games for laughs as well but we required that the ct be destroyed internally not just from engine crits.

[Ian]

Quote

Hi all,

I've been playing my first few games of Battletech ttg recently (very late to the party, I know - been a MW fan since MW2). While I'm having a blast, and it's a great game, I had a number of ideas for streamlining all that junk that needs to be kept in memory (or written down) all the time. I thought I'd post it up, to see what people thought, and whether anyone would like to try it out in their own games. I'm also interested in any changes others have come up with that streamline the gameplay, or otherwise update it.

Firstly, I don't understand torso twisting. To me, the wide front arc seems like it already factors in the sort of torso movement a 'mech could make in the allotted time. It also makes rear attacks far less likely, which overall reduces the strategy involved. On top of that, it favours Assault 'mechs, or other 'mechs with slow speeds, and reduces the effectiveness of faster lights and those with jumpjets.

So first off, I canned the torso twist - it's nothing more than an additional layer of complexity the game doesn't need and (in my mind) already accounts for.

The larger change though, was in the way turns are conducted. I had an idea that makes initiative matter more out of the movement phase, as well as buffing up smaller tonnage 'mechs. Here's how it goes:

Initiative happens normally. Movement happens normally. The rest is modified. First, the weapons phase isn't split up. Instead, players take turns resolving all firing one 'mech at a time, starting with the lowest tonnage mechs (highest initiative goes first) and working up. Heat is factored as it occurs. What this essentially does is simulates the speed and reflexes of lighter 'mechs, by allowing them to resolve their attacks before anyone else. They fire weapons, apply damage and resolve crits one 'mech at a time. This means that Jenner could potentially knock out the Atlas' AC/20 before it brings it to bear.

This does modify the fundamentals of the game, but I think it may do it in an advantageous way. It improves the usefulness of lighter 'mechs (because they have initiative in battle), gives the players more choice (which 50 ton 'mech do I resolve first?), drastically reduces the amount of stuff you need to remember (which speeds up the gameplay), and allows players to have larger games with a better distribution of weights.

Because I'm only a newbie to the TT, I have no idea how this affects Combined Arms etc. So I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or additional suggestions? Have you gone through a similar process of changing things up too? Are there other rules you think can be improved?

You sir have not played enough. Good light mechs are worth their weight in gold. These changes would see to it no one ever used heavies and assaults (well maybe clan heavies). This is a recipe for someone who wants to see lights and mediums running all over destroying heavies/assaults taking no return fire.

[Murphy7]

We had a house rule regarding rear facing weapons where we would allow a player to dumb fire them if they had an attacker centerline their rear arc, with a +2 penalty to hit. This was a bit different than the standard multiple attacker penalties but was in place to (1) make rearward facing weapons not quite so worthless and (2) mitigate a bit of the power of light mechs to back shoot with impunity.

Part of this was us trying to make sense of the choices made with the Dragon, Archer, Battlemaster amongst others.

[JHare]

WiCkEd, on 11 June 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

We called this "Smoking Hole Syndrom" and did it in our games for laughs as well but we required that the ct be destroyed internally not just from engine crits.

We basically created a few rules that made the higher level tech hazardous and dealt with some imbalances we saw. So IS XL engines became high risk/high payoff, laser boats suffered from not getting to crit for crap. The high mass of autcannons became more acceptable. AC/2 became useful.

Also, to balance how powerful JJ are, you always rolled a PSR if you jumped. +1 for light woods, +2 for heavy. JJ became medium-risk/high-payoff instead of no risk/high payoff.

[Daetrin Voltari]

While I wouldn't call it blasphemy, it might be....ill received. BattleTech has been going essentially unchanged since ’84 for a reason. It works. 22 years of play testing beats anything else in the industry.

Zyzyx66, on 05 June 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Also, they're already elite pilots. A more experienced mechwarrior would really just be more experienced at reading the battle.

Actually, green pilots are just that, green. A pilot with a skill of 5 or 6 is able to move, turn, and carry out basic maneuvers. A pilot with a skill of one or two can juggle, play baseball, or dance a jig. There is actually a “Summer Games” event on the planet Noisiel based on pilots doing things that mechs aren't supposed to be able to do, like talent shows and chess matches. (See Mercenary Supplemental II for details)

Zyzyx66, on 05 June 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

I understand with the torso twisting - I knew it was based off the feet. That particular rule subtraction I thought worked because I feel (at least in my newbie state) that it does nothing but add another piece of complexity to the game that doesn't need to be there, and it means that slower mechs are actually at some sort of actual disadvantage by being slow. I know they also get hit more often, but that's more than made up for in armour and return fire capability.

In 22 years of playing I think this is the first time I’ve seen someone say that being slow isn’t a disadvantage. High speed lets you dictate ranges, hook around the flank to engage objectives or specific targets, and disengage when you chose. The slow team loses all of these options. Their only hope is to engage in a slugfest and hope the other side plays by their rules. That has historically been one of the weaknesses of Steiner forces (famed for their love of slow heavy mechs over tactical flexibility).
If you are just playing stand up slugfests then you should be balancing weight or BV anyway, in which case it won’t be one light against one assault, it’ll be a swarm of lights versus the assault. Traditionally the swarm wins because, even if every round sees one light mech destroyed the others aren’t effected by the loss, whereas damage to the assault mech (like a hit to a foot actuator) represents a degradation of the entire force.

Zyzyx66, on 05 June 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

In that scenario, wouldn't the Atlas have been screwed before anyway? The Cicada firing from the Atlas's rear would mean that in the actual rules or my mutated version, the Atlas wouldn't be able to fire anyway.

It looks like you may have a misunderstanding about the rules here. Remember that arm mounted weapons fire in the front and side arc. If mech B gets behind mech A then mech A can twist it’s torso one hex facing allowing it to point it’s arm one additional hex face, threatening mech B. This means you can always point one arm directly behind you. (Total Warfare P.105) If you remove torso twisting then heavy and assault mechs really are screwed when facing lights, especially with your proposed initiative changes. It’s also why you don't see every mech mounting rear facing weapons. Why dedicate tonnage to a limited arc weapon if you can just shoot arm mounted weapons to the rear? It also allows for a one fisted punch to the rear if you don’t fire with that arm, basically a backhanded smash.


If you haven’t checked them out yet the forums at http://bg.battletech...orums/index.php and http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com are great resources.
In any case. Welcome to BattleTech. We’re always glad to have new players.

[Zyzyx66]

Excellent points all round - I've certainly come to terms with torso twisting now, and fully agree it's a necessary addition.

Giving slow mechs another (really rather small) disadvantage I don't see as a problem. Of course in a game with one or two Atlas's vs their equal BV in faster lighter mechs the lighter mechs will control the battlefield - but that's somewhat the idea. It would seem to provoke more consideration of a much more evenly balanced force.

I'm sufficiently shamed enough to agree that most of my proposals weren't the best idea. I suppose at the crux I think that having all units resolve fire at the same time is unnecessary, and it would add an interesting tactical addition if players took turns resolving one mech at a time (firing, damage, heat all together). It would engage players into REALLY managing their resources (which mechs act in which order would have a more interesting effect on the outcome of the turn). And ultimately, it just feels more streamlined. Having said that, I've not tried it, favouring just playing vanilla games for a few (dozen) more matches to get a better feel.

I'm liking the other homebrew rules people are talking about - any more house rules people have found that are fun to use?

[Karl Streiger]

I have played a three games now, were a single unit is resolved - then the next and the next and the next.

It worked - allowing and punishing tactics with a high risk -
it becomes more important wich targets you choose, it becomes more important to keep you units together - a mech that got seperated behind a hill or forest is dead -> a enemy can close in one turn fire its guns obliberating the enemy and stay undamaged.

Oh at least Inferno Rounds become more important.

[Zyzyx66]

Karl Streiger, on 22 June 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

I have played a three games now, were a single unit is resolved - then the next and the next and the next.

It worked - allowing and punishing tactics with a high risk -
it becomes more important wich targets you choose, it becomes more important to keep you units together - a mech that got seperated behind a hill or forest is dead -> a enemy can close in one turn fire its guns obliberating the enemy and stay undamaged.

Oh at least Inferno Rounds become more important.

That's pretty much exactly how I'd assumed it would play out - a more interesting weapons phase than 15 minutes of rolling dice. Not that I have a problem with that

[Karl Streiger]

The problem is you may forgot the weapon heat phase...in the very first game i played this version with a complete group of newbies - because i thought it must be more fun.
After one side have lost a Hellbringer - overheated and then got a engine hit - they started to calculate the heat of a potential engine hit in every next round.
But you tend to overheat your mech more because - if you are able to kill a enemy mech this mech isn't able to return fire.

[RangerRob]

One thing I developed to speed up the game...

Fire sticks


Each weapon on the Mech has a firestick. I make mine out of popsicle sticks.

One one side of the stick I write the mechs name (Warhammer).
On the other side of the stick I write the weapon and the heat it generates (ERPPC 15)

During the game when it comes to the fire declaration phase, everyone can place the firesticks for the weapons that they wish to shoot next to their target.

Then shooting phase comes around, the Warhammer player would...
1) pick up his stack of sticks,
2) figure to hit numbers (with the aid of the movement dice)
3) roll, placing the hit sticks in one pile, the miss sticks in another.
4) roll for damage location using the Hit pile.
5) put the hit and miss piles back together and generate heat.

These firesticks along with movement dice speed the game up quite a bit. Lets me run a company on company game in 3-4 hours.

Post 3025 tech actually speeds the game up with more headcappers and accurate fire.

Floating crit rule can speed the game up too.