35 replies to this topic

[Rodrigo Martinez]

We will have the Locust mech in the next couple of weeks. It's will be a lighter mech with the max engine rating of 170. 10 mandatory HS (necessary to start the battle ) will make this mech extremely useless. May we have a max HS number linked to the mech's tonnage or mech's class?

[Bhael Fire]

The engine has a good portion of those heatsinks installed already, leaving only few to install.

For example, the stock LCT-1V build comes with a Std. 160 that has 6 heatsinks, leaving only 4 to be installed.

[RandomLurker]

Commando has same problem.

Engines should all come with 10 heat sinks, plain and simple, like in the TT. Would eliminate of lot of weird fitting issues and make heat balance easier to address.

[ShotgunWillie]

RandomLurker, on 24 September 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Commando has same problem.

Engines should all come with 10 heat sinks, plain and simple, like in the TT. Would eliminate of lot of weird fitting issues and make heat balance easier to address.

Engines in MWO are also lighter than the engines in TT, precisely because they don't come with those heat sinks. Weight wise, it really does balance out. If you're worried about slots (a legit problem when you start trying to fit Endo, Ferro, and DHS with an XL engine), you can always drop Ferro, or not use DHS (the Locust 1V really doesn't need doubles), or use a standard engine.

[stjobe]

ShotgunWillie, on 24 September 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Engines in MWO are also lighter than the engines in TT, precisely because they don't come with those heat sinks. Weight wise, it really does balance out. If you're worried about slots (a legit problem when you start trying to fit Endo, Ferro, and DHS with an XL engine), you can always drop Ferro, or not use DHS (the Locust 1V really doesn't need doubles), or use a standard engine.

There's also the issue that if you do have DHS and a sub-250 engine (like most lights), you get cheated out of some heat dissipation and heat cap.

As an example, my Commandos regularly run with XL195 engines; these come with only 7 engine heat sinks, so I must install another 3 heat sinks to make the 'mech legal. Those additional 3 heat sinks are only 1.4 dissipation and cap, not 2.0 like the ones in the engine, so instead of 20 SHS equivalent I only get 18.2 (7 * 2.0 + 3 * 1.4).

It's a small difference, but a completely unnecessary and needless one; just give every engine 10 heat sinks - or at least make the first 10 heat sinks have the same performance whether they're in-engine or external.

But yes, the "solution" is to not install FF - it's only about a half-ton gained any way.

Edit: For the record, I don't think we should go back to being able to drop with less than 10 heat sinks - we had that in closed beta and it was worse.

Edited by stjobe, 24 September 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[Rodrigo Martinez]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

As an example, my Commandos regularly run with XL195 engines; these come with only 7 engine heat sinks, so I must install another 3 heat sinks to make the 'mech legal. Those additional 3 heat sinks are only 1.4 dissipation and cap, not 2.0 like the ones in the engine, so instead of 20 SHS equivalent I only get 18.2 (7 * 2.0 + 3 * 1.4).

It's a small difference, but a completely unnecessary and needless one; just give every engine 10 heat sinks - or at least make the first 10 heat sinks have the same performance whether they're in-engine or external.

But yes, the "solution" is to not install FF - it's only about a half-ton gained any way.

Edit: For the record, I don't think we should go back to being able to drop with less than 10 heat sinks - we had that in closed beta and it was worse.

I have no experience with closed beta, so I don't know how it feels to drop with less than 10 HS. But I think that the mechs under 30t are suffering from the 10 HS rule. The customisation of commando is way harder than the customisation of Jenner or Raven. Currently we have Spider 5k, the mech with exactly same hardpoints layout as Locust IV. DHS makes this mech far more comfortable, especially on hot maps.

[Zyllos]

The only problem with the 10 base heatsinks is that outside engine heatsinks for the base 10 are negatively effected.

This is a small imbalance between larger and smaller engines when using DHS because the smaller engine will always have less heat dissipation and capacity than larger engines for the same number of heatsinks and this shouldn't be the case.

I think the only issue is DHS, both inside and outside, need to be modified to be equal so no engine types are negatively effected.

[RandomLurker]

Zyllos, on 24 September 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

The only problem with the 10 base heatsinks is that outside engine heatsinks for the base 10 are negatively effected.

This is a small imbalance between larger and smaller engines when using DHS because the smaller engine will always have less heat dissipation and capacity than larger engines for the same number of heatsinks and this shouldn't be the case.

I think the only issue is DHS, both inside and outside, need to be modified to be equal so no engine types are negatively effected.

This is what I was referring to earlier, but explained better.

[stjobe]

Rodrigo Martinez, on 24 September 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

I have no experience with closed beta, so I don't know how it feels to drop with less than 10 HS.

Imagine having 7 Single Heat Sinks and trying to not overheat a 'mech mounting three medium lasers and a SRM-6. That's what it was like. Oh, we could mount more - one ton each, remove one ML for each HS, please!

Rodrigo Martinez, on 24 September 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

But I think that the mechs under 30t are suffering from the 10 HS rule.

Yes, we're suffering because we don't get all 10 of them - but the solution isn't to let us drop with less than 10, the solution is to give us all 10 - or at least make the ones we have to buy extra (at additional cost I might add) perform as well as the ones that come with the engine.

There's simply no good reason the first 10 heat sinks shouldn't be all working the same way; it's just a needless and pointless punishment to any 'mech mounting a sub-250 engine.

[Circles End]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

There's simply no good reason the first 10 heat sinks shouldn't be all working the same way; it's just a needless and pointless punishment to any 'mech mounting a sub-250 engine.

QFT.

[Hythos]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

There's also the issue that if you do have DHS and a sub-250 engine (like most lights), you get cheated out of some heat dissipation and heat cap.

As an example, my Commandos regularly run with XL195 engines; these come with only 7 engine heat sinks, so I must install another 3 heat sinks to make the 'mech legal. Those additional 3 heat sinks are only 1.4 dissipation and cap, not 2.0 like the ones in the engine, so instead of 20 SHS equivalent I only get 18.2 (7 * 2.0 + 3 * 1.4).

It's a small difference, but a completely unnecessary and needless one; just give every engine 10 heat sinks - or at least make the first 10 heat sinks have the same performance whether they're in-engine or external.

But yes, the "solution" is to not install FF - it's only about a half-ton gained any way.

Edit: For the record, I don't think we should go back to being able to drop with less than 10 heat sinks - we had that in closed beta and it was worse.

'Mechs should come with 10xHeatSinks (single, double, laser, any) at no extra weight, but should still need to be allocated per Battletech Core Rules.

[Zyllos]

Hythos, on 24 September 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

'Mechs should come with 10xHeatSinks (single, double, laser, any) at no extra weight, but should still need to be allocated per Battletech Core Rules.

Technically, they do.

MWO has taken whatever engine weight a rating is in CBT, subtracted the heatsinks that are needed outside from the weight of the engine, then added the gyro and cockpit weights back in, to get the final weight of the engine.

The only problem with this is the STD 100 and XL 120 and lower can't be weighted correctly due to having "negative" engine weights while heatsinks would be placed on the mech to make up the difference.

This could easily be fixed if they just made the engines have the correct weight, then added new types of Engine Heatsinks that have a weight of 0.0t and you can only add 10 - ((250 - engine rating) / 25) of these. These Engine Heatsinks have the same dissipation, capacity, and critical slot sizes as the equipped heatsink type.

Edited by Zyllos, 27 September 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[Hythos]

Zyllos, on 27 September 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Technically, they do.

MWO has taken whatever engine weight a rating is in CBT, subtracted the heatsinks that are needed outside from the weight of the engine, then added the gyro and cockpit weights back in, to get the final weight of the engine.

The only problem with this is the STD 100 and XL 120 and lower can't be weighted correctly due to having "negative" engine weights while heatsinks would be placed on the mech to make up the difference.

This could easily be fixed if they just made the engines have the correct weight, then added new types of Engine Heatsinks that have a weight of 0.0t and you can only add 10 - ((250 - engine rating) / 25) of these. These Engine Heatsinks have the same dissipation, capacity, and critical slot sizes as the equipped heatsink type.

Exactly. Core-rules state that; the first 10 cost no weight even if they must be allocated "critically". This might even allow for more Canon units, as any light 'Mechs with less than 100-rated engines won't require 6+ tons of heat sinks just to get it off the ground. (Yes, a 20-ton using a 100rated engine may be worthless anyway, BUT, is that the 'Meta' they're going for? Only light 'Mechs with any usefulness must be running a ~200+ rated-engine?) Heavier equipment has always been allowable on Lights (again, per Core Rules).

[Armored Yokai]

if this were to be changed then engines will be heavier basically

Edited by Cementblade, 27 September 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

for eng below 250, any additional HS added to make the 10 needed to drop, should be 2.0 if you have DHS.

So for the lights who get screwed by the 10 HS requirement, this is a godsend and would be the only way to help such lights out. It also would help assaults/heavys ect who go with a smaller under 250 eng, as well to a point. So MR slow and Purposeful with a firepower of yes, wouldn't necessarily explode as soon as he shoots everything when mounting a 225 eng. Also Mr spider and Mr Commando, would now be able to properly use there energy hard-points when running with 10 TRUE DHS instead of 7 DHS and 3....abominations called DHS.

[The Justicar]

Anybody that doesn't see this as a problem should take a gander at smurfy:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5d46eaf2dcda9cf

Good luck have fun building something viable.

[MajorLeeHung]

RandomLurker, on 24 September 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Commando has same problem.

Engines should all come with 10 heat sinks, plain and simple, like in the TT. Would eliminate of lot of weird fitting issues and make heat balance easier to address.

Been playing TT for 15 years. Engines do NOT always have room to contain 10 heatsink. Yes they get 10 and any not in the engine are no weight but still need to be allocated to crit slots

[Training Instructor]

I think it makes no sense really. A 100 ton Atlas can roll into battle with 10 hs, but a 20 ton Locust not anywhere near as capable of producing the same amount of heat also has to roll in with 10hs.

It's a big problem, just because you need 9 crit slots for those extra three dhs. For singles, it's not really an issue, but the locust variants with more energy hardpoints really need DHS, and they're going to struggle.

So what's .5 tons really? It's a small laser.

[Modo44]

No. The only "problem" exists when you try to put lots of weapons on a tiny scout mech. You can't, deal with it. Sensible builds will work fine.

[MustrumRidcully]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Edit: For the record, I don't think we should go back to being able to drop with less than 10 heat sinks - we had that in closed beta and it was worse.

Mechs that could even cool down sometimes on Caustic Valley. Good bad times.