47 replies to this topic

[Amethyst Blade]

State of the Missile Boat
Dec 7th 2014

I play missile boats a lot. Missing the pre-ECM days of LRM storms, I've never been soured on the Long Range Missile. LRM indirect fire in the Classic Battletech board game, generally meant dusting off a manual and going hunting for those rules, if you could find a spotter. In MechWarrior Online, LRM indirect fire is the absolute norm for firing the weapon. If you can see your target, they are dangerously close to being within your minimum range where you can't fire at them.

What are LRMs?
LRMs are long range missiles. According to the board game, Classic Battletech, you could expect about half of them to hit a target. They spread their damage around not all hitting any one location usually. Artemis IV (later V), NARC and TAG can increase the number of missiles that hit. Naturally you can never hit with more than all of your missiles (or increase the damage above what all of them hitting would do).

What is a Missile Boat?
Any 'Mech with a lot of missiles is a missile boat. A lot will go to the extreme, only mounting LRMs and hoping never to fight close quarters where LRMs do no damage. There are many missile boats. I saw a video of the B33F using a 'Mech with 5x LRM20, which is about the most you can get on a 'Mech. I prefer to use about 60 missiles, for heat and weight reasons. There are a couple of ways to do this, listed below. LRM 15s benefit from a rounding quirk from Classic Battletech. The inner sphere LRM 20 is 10 tons. The LRM 15 should be 7.5 tons but it is 7. The innersphere LRM 15 saves you 0.5 tons each, and the clan 0.25 tons each. When you are using a lot, it makes a small difference.

Classic Battletech Stats (Which haven't changed for MWO)
IS LRM 15 5 Heat 7 Tons 3 Slots
IS LRM 20 6 Heat 10 Tons 5 Slots
Clan LRM 15 5 Heat 3.5 Tons 2 Slots
Clan LRM 20 6 Heat 5 Tons 4 Slots

Now, let's get 60 missiles in the air
IS LRM 15 x4 20 heat 28 Tons 12 Slots
IS LRM 20 x3 18 heat 30 Tons 15 Slots
Clan LRM 15 x4 20 heat 14 Tons 8 Slots
Clan LRM 20 x3 18 heat 15 Tons 12 Slots
Now With Artemis IV
IS LRM 15 x4 20 heat 32 Tons 16 Slots
IS LRM 20 x3 18 heat 33 Tons 18 Slots
Clan LRM 15 x4 20 heat 18 Tons 12 Slots
Clan LRM 20 x3 18 heat 18 Tons 12 Slots

(The LRM 20 has a slightly slower rate of fire, something else to consider.)

Why the Awesome AWS-8R is, now, the king of LRMs.
I bought the Clan Wave I package. I just wanted the Dire Wolf but I knew I'd want to try others. I've played LRMs on the Kit Fox, Storm Crow, Adder, Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf and nothing compares to my Awesome.

Unlike Classic Battletech, where each shot is carefully planned and the choice to fire is dependent on knowing the chance of a successful hit, in MWO wave after wave of missiles crash into buildings harmlessly. You need a lot of ammunition. 7-10 tons, unheard of in the board game, is a nice amount. Although the medium clan 'Mechs can equip a 60 LRM build, they simply can't do that, add Artemis and have ammunition, even with the clan weight advantage. So they are out as the "best" missile boat.

The most iconic 'Mech in all of Battletech is the Timber Wolf (Mad Cat). It seems like the logical choice for a missile boat, but the Prime and S only have hard points for 2 missile weapons. The C has hardpoints for 4, but permanently mounted Jump Jets in those torso slots make it impossible to fit more than 1 LRM 15 or 20 if it has Artemis. This has carefully nerfed the most powerful missile boat from existing. With the head, torso and legs conveniently filled with permanent junk, Timber Wolves must mount most or all their ammunition in their arms. This iconic 'Mech has been ruined to preserve game balance but I understand. We don't want a return to LRM's or nothing games.

You can get 4 LRM 15s on a Scarecrow, but not with Artemis IV and not with significant ammunition. Most other Clan 'Mechs can support 1 or 2 such missile systems. Honestly, this just doesn't feel effective. Once you have hit someone with a few volleys, they are going to run and hide, often stepping out of targeting range and vanishing. Since only about half your missiles are probably going hit, 2 LRMs barely have the hitting power of one Guase rifle or a PPC.

The Highlander is touted as the best Missile Boat on the MWO Forums. I can respect that. Bigger and with plenty of missile hard points it was probably the best missile boat, right up until the IS wave of quirks came out and it probably remains more flexible. The Awesome AWS-8R getting 25% faster cooldown and 25% increased range for LRM 15's give it a decisive edge however. Even with a 300 XL engine taking up Torso slots it can fix 4 LRM 15 with Artemis. (It can fit 3 LRM 20's you must drop to a 240 standard engine, and you wouldn't want to, with the LRM 15 specific quirks.) Combined with the LRM cooldown module, this 'Mech produces probably the most lethal volley of LRM fire in the game.

That's a bit of a claim. With the Clan Wave II coming out, I wonder if the Vulture might claim the title. Or maybe I'm missing some detail about the Highlander's effectiveness. Please tell me if you have a better build or have found another 'Mech that you feel is better at using LRMs.

BAP
The Beagle Active Probe, or Active Probe among the clans. This little piece of technology gets you targets by piercing ECM systems your enemy may have.
Active Probes just had their range decreased. That makes it hard for your scouts to give you targets to shoot at, but it also makes it harder for the enemy to find you. That means their scouts have to search closer and puts them at risk of leaving ECM envelopes and giving you targets to shoot at. I've watched a few games where the scouts were all eliminated. Can be blame that on the Active Probe change? I'm not sure.

TAG
Target Acquisition Gear. This makes more missiles hit. If you see someone firing a laser that never stops, it's not a weapon laser, it's a TAG. If you paint someone with a tag, even if they are in an ECM field, suddenly you will find you can target them. Streak SRMs will not fire unless you have a target lock, so a TAG might be a good idea. It takes up an energy weapon slot for 1 ton and 1 critical slot. I've even seen a trick where people bind it to the throttle control on their joystick, leaving it on permanently. I don't believe that is cheating, unless we hear from a MODERATOR?

NARC
This is a missile weapon so it needs ammunition, and at 12 shots per ton, you want at least 1 ton of ammo. You shoot this weapon at an enemy 'Mech, using direct fire, and it makes missiles hit them more often. As a missile boat, you want to avoid direct combat, so you might think about leaving this equipment to other team mates. The NARC missile only lasts 30 seconds and disrupts ECM while it works.

Artemis IV Fire Control System
This is a system to improve the number of missiles that hit. It functions very similarly to NARC. Artemis requires line of site to work, so the indirect fire you are doing won't benefit from it all the time.

Stacking
Only 2 of these three systems will stack.
For a great Post on TAG/NARC/ARTEMIS, stacking and specific math see this thread - By Gauvan.
http://mwomercs.com/...rc-and-artemis/

Anti-Missile Systems
In the board game, an AMS, anti-missile system, basically a high speed machine gun, can fire once per 6 seconds. If this logic still follows through, then attacking with several LRMs at once is better than firing several smaller volleys of missiles. More missiles should get through. The best thing I can suggest about AMS's is perhaps choose a different target and let your direct-fire allies deal with that 'Mech. The Kit Fox is notorious for its C variant OmniPod made popular because it is ECM capable, but also fits 3 AMS's. If you spot this machine on the battlefield, know that it is your bane! Time to ask your allies to get rid of it!

Playing a Missile Boat
MWO has a bad history with LRM's dominating the game early on. It can be quite frustrating to lose to an opponent you never saw, and probably did not have a chance to shoot back at. Be a good sport and don't rub it in when you make a kill this way.
Knowing where to be is critical for a missile boat. You do want to hang back from the main fighting, but you always have to be aware of 'Mechs closing with you, or coming in from behind. When this happens you need to run into the rest of your team for protection. Ironically teams love to protect their missile boats, and they love to shoot at scouts who thought the missile boat would make an easy target.

Move. Sure you've got a great firing position but somewhere out there is someone with LRMs, a bunch of guase rifles, lasers or PPCs and is muttering complaints about the LRMs raining down as they make their way to a vantage point where they can sniper you. Moving ten steps left or right, might force that sniper, that you never knew about, to climb down and find an entirely new place to shoot you from. LRMs are obvious and figuring out where you are is easy. Besides, this gives you time to cool down your heat level. With all the cooldown upgrades, I get off 2-4 shots and then move, even if I've got a good position. I might even return to that position later. I can't tell you how frustrating it is when I stay somewhere too long and that splashy 'Mech disabled screen comes on and I watch my Awesome explode - knowing I didn't follow my own advice.

Check the Damage: It takes a bit before the target information comes up. You might not get to see it. If you do, check and see that the 'Mech is getting damaged. This could be damage from team mates. Sometimes it's hard to tell. If you get the kill, you'll know for sure.

Ask for help and support. It's not bad to mention to people that you have a missile boat. A scout might take an extra second to grab or hold a target lock, risking himself, if he sees a shower of LRMs rain on that target. People might focus a little on using TAG and NARC gear they might have, realizing that it could help win the match, instead of ignoring it. Just try to avoid blaming your team during those matches where you get overrun, picked off by a scout or have other bad luck. Missile Boats are a specialized unit, very effective in the right circumstances, but they carry a risk you take when you decide to use them.

So What is the State of the Missile Boat?
I would say things are good. Some Maps really support the missile boat. On other Maps you have to really pay attention to whether you are hitting the targets or not, to prevent dumping tons of missiles into the side of a building, hill or onto a rooftop. With a little help from your team, and a few mistakes on the part of your opponents, your missiles can be very effective. Be patient, don't fall asleep and you too can listen to dead opponent's complain about the LRMs.

Missile Boats seem fair. If the opposing team uses ECM and cover effectively, they can greatly reduce the LRM damage they suffer. Really coordinated teams have presented me with no targets until they closed, making the LRMs useless for that time. I've also had my missile boat rushed, sniper'ed or picked off my a scout often enough to be certain that it's not the most dominant force in the game. The point is that there is give and take. You can't just unload missiles carelessly, but you can't just ignore an enemy missile boat either.

How Well are you doing with Your Missile Boat?
You can try get an idea of how you are doing during a game, but the end game stats give you an efficient summary. At the end of the match, look at your damage, kills and assists - but especially look at your damage. If it's under 100, you are not doing a lot of damage. If it's between 200 and 500 you are doing well. If it's higher than that, it's awesome. Remember your maximum damage per game will be the number of LRMs you have (unless you have other weapons). So if you have 1200 LRMs, you won't ever do more damage than 1200. Before the game ends, note how many LRMs you fired. This will let you figure out how many are hitting. I find I average a quarter to a half hitting with Artemis IV.

Mark Charke

[KharnZor]

I've never read anywhere that the Highlander was the best missile boat

[Sergey Kosinskiy]

Yeahhh if i want to use my 8R i would brobably go with 4SRM 6 +A +2LL+1ML. At least i as assault will tank some damage.
Also for Clan LRM-boat there is a Masakari.

[zortesh]

Awesome isn't the best, you haven't tried the warhawk-b .. which is the best lrm boat a fairly large margin in my opinion.

This is a fairly good summation on lrms, but see my lrm guide for a more indepth look at lrms.


Asto how I'm doing with lrmboats,,,,







If you try really hard you can get lrms to about a 40% hitrate.

Lrms are very weak against aggressive teams, but they stomp passive teams.

[Captain Stiffy]

Stalker 5m with 5x LRM15 and both modules. Wrecks all of them every faces.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 07 December 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[superteds]

state of lrms; people for some reason feel the need to ram every missile slot on every mech, no matter its purpose, full of lrms.

[STEF_]

zortesh, on 07 December 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

If you try really hard you can get lrms to about a 40% hitrate.

Lrms are very weak against aggressive teams, but they stomp passive teams.

And to this, I add that a weapon that spreads damage like LRM is very very inefficent.
I mean: 1223 dmg and ONLY 2 kills?

LRM would make sense if there would not be instant pinpoint damage.

[Walluh]

superteds, on 07 December 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

state of lrms; people for some reason feel the need to ram every missile slot on every mech, no matter its purpose, full of lrms.

LRM boating King Crabs incoming.

[El Bandito]

I piloted the 8R post-quirk and I found out that quad LRM10 is actually superior than quad A/LRM15 build. Not only it us heat and ammo efficient, it has similar spread and allows me to pack large class lasers as backup weapon, instead of medium lasers. Same deal with my Timbie -S. LRM10 is the new hotness, IMO.

[Unnatural Growth]

KharnZor, on 07 December 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

I've never read anywhere that the Highlander was the best missile boat

News to me too, with 3 mastered Highlanders even. Pretty hard to continue reading after seeing that pearl of wisdom from the OP. Maybe he meant Atlas?

[Bishop Steiner]

it's gonna get a lot better when the King Crab hits....... dat thing gonna eat LRMs nomnomnom!

[Livewyr]

I played for about 8 cumulative hours over the last 3 days.. I have not seen a single LRM boat.

(Turns out that on/off switch ECM being available on 10+ chassies really takes the usefulness out of missiles.)

All I see are ballistics, lasers, and some SRM boats.

[El Bandito]

These people had never seen how effective was the Lurmander 733 was then. It was my best LRM boat until the arrival of Clans and quirks.

[Xetelian]

Minor essay on LRMs but reaks of...troll.

Needs a Too Long Didn't Read option

[Artgathan]

The OP advocates bringing 1260 - 1800 missiles (7 - 10 tons) and then claims that 200 - 500 damage is acceptable? If I brought 7 - 10 tons of AC ammo and did 200 - 500 damage people would laugh at how hilariously incompetent I am as a pilot.

The point is, instead of relentlessly spamming LRMs you should put yourself in a position where the missiles will actually hit the target. Many people advocate using LRMs as a "suppression" weapon, but this is a useless role for LRMs because either:

• You're firing indirectly at a target, which means someone else has visual contact with the target and is probably already engaging it (thus, suppressing it)
  
• You're directly firing at a target and - unless it's in open ground - it will likely shoot you and retreat to cover before the LRMs land (IE: your suppression was not effective because the enemy returned fire)

Generally a quick glance at your minimap can tell you whether or not the missiles will have a chance of hitting the target before you even fire - there's no need to fire everything at every target that pops up.


LRMs are all about flanking the enemy (so that their cover is ineffective) and using the missiles to push the enemy out of cover into allied firing arcs, or providing close-range fire support (using the impacts to disrupt enemy aim while allied units engage the target). Hanging 600+ meters back from the engagement and lobbing LRMs is generally an exercise in futility, as the 3.75+ second flight time (which doesn't account for the time spent locking the target) means that the state of the battlefield has likely changed drastically by the time the missiles arrive.

[One Medic Army]

Where are you guys when I fit my Jenner with a NARC?

[Monkey Lover]

Missile boats are a dieing breed. If i take 10 TONS of ammo the most i could hope for is 900dmg if people dont move. Most games you will end up with 500 if you're lucky.

[Abivard]

Very nice post about how LRM's SHOULD work!

At present the LRM's have been so badly nerfed that they have become ineffective in most pug matches!

Almost all players that understand the gameplay do not equip AMS, Nor do many equip Radar derp. In group drops the use of ECM mechs is minimal, maybe a lone ECM for a 12 man, often none at all.

You don't see ANY posts QQ'n about LRM's since the last patch! That is a sure sign they have been nerfed into uselessness.

[zortesh]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 December 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

And to this, I add that a weapon that spreads damage like LRM is very very inefficent.
I mean: 1223 dmg and ONLY 2 kills?

LRM would make sense if there would not be instant pinpoint damage.

Yeah but the whole wof missiles flying out of your mech looks awesome... even if i can rack up like 5 kills and 1k damage way easyier in a guass mech.

Its more of a murder campers thing, i can put them in situation where its charge, or die one by one as your narced, they have tactical uses but are a terribad weapon system overall... good groups will just roll over lrmboats.

One Medic Army, on 07 December 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Where are you guys when I fit my Jenner with a NARC?

Brining narc scares off friendly missileboats... which is why i narc from a assault lrm boat.(mathcmaker doesn't know what to do about that....)

Or join deaths hand brigade, we have a fair few guys that like lrms and a narcer is always welcome.

Monkey Lover, on 07 December 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Missile boats are a dieing breed. If i take 10 TONS of ammo the most i could hope for is 900dmg if people dont move. Most games you will end up with 500 if you're lucky.

Yeah, less and less effective as time goes on, and the relatively high chance of landing vs 4+ ecm mechs just goes up as they release more ecms.

Abivard, on 07 December 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

Very nice post about how LRM's SHOULD work!

At present the LRM's have been so badly nerfed that they have become ineffective in most pug matches!

Almost all players that understand the gameplay do not equip AMS, Nor do many equip Radar derp. In group drops the use of ECM mechs is minimal, maybe a lone ECM for a 12 man, often none at all.

You don't see ANY posts QQ'n about LRM's since the last patch! That is a sure sign they have been nerfed into uselessness.

Massed ecm mainly, releasing he hellbringer and nerfing the bap was a real kick in the balls to spotters and lrmboats.

Artgathan, on 07 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

The OP advocates bringing 1260 - 1800 missiles (7 - 10 tons) and then claims that 200 - 500 damage is acceptable? If I brought 7 - 10 tons of AC ammo and did 200 - 500 damage people would laugh at how hilariously incompetent I am as a pilot.

The point is, instead of relentlessly spamming LRMs you should put yourself in a position where the missiles will actually hit the target. Many people advocate using LRMs as a "suppression" weapon, but this is a useless role for LRMs because either:

• You're firing indirectly at a target, which means someone else has visual contact with the target and is probably already engaging it (thus, suppressing it)
  
• You're directly firing at a target and - unless it's in open ground - it will likely shoot you and retreat to cover before the LRMs land (IE: your suppression was not effective because the enemy returned fire)

Generally a quick glance at your minimap can tell you whether or not the missiles will have a chance of hitting the target before you even fire - there's no need to fire everything at every target that pops up.



LRMs are all about flanking the enemy (so that their cover is ineffective) and using the missiles to push the enemy out of cover into allied firing arcs, or providing close-range fire support (using the impacts to disrupt enemy aim while allied units engage the target). Hanging 600+ meters back from the engagement and lobbing LRMs is generally an exercise in futility, as the 3.75+ second flight time (which doesn't account for the time spent locking the target) means that the state of the battlefield has likely changed drastically by the time the missiles arrive.

Well said.

Lrms need to be used aggressively, sitting back and just spamming at targets works occasionally but really just leads to leeching off your team while being mildly useful.

I also feel if you bring 10+ tons of lrm ammo.. and good game is 1k+ damage.... i mean i get 500 dmg on games in my warhawk where i lose and its a stomp.

[That Dawg]

Amethyst Blade, on 07 December 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

What are LRMs?

uhm...........wall of text hurt dawgs eyes




Was hoping for charts, graphs, server statistics, invasion statistics, heat to tonnage to slots ratio bar graphs with interactive sliders allowing tabs for chain fire, or alpha strikes.
Short videos comparing constants on hot maps (really WHO tests anything on a cold map?)
More smurf links showing mechs that more intelligently use 4 LRM 10's vs. 2LRM20's
Or how a tiny mech like the Kintaro routinely gets AS MANY KILLS as my biggest bestest LRM boats with twice the ammo, and twice the tubes
We may be color blind, but my peoples likes us a good graph

IF LRM's were all that OP, then I would die a LOT more from LRM's. At most, they are an annoyance.
I do however get 1-2 kills each time I drag a lermer out of the mech bay into pugs. Even on roll stomps, keep up with the pack, and spam baby, spam