43 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Anyone got any tips for flanking? It seems every time I try to do it theres always at least one guy who just happened to be in the one spot I went. It doesn't matter where I got but theres always someone whos just completely out of place but there to stop me.

Last match, for example, I loaded up a kitfox with ecm, UAC10, and a small laser in hopes of harassing some heavy and assault mechs. I got put on Canyon Network and so went the back route no one usually goes near. About 5 seconds into it I see a Panther with dual large lasers on the hill above me, I notice I hadn't brought jump jets. Since its only him and I do have a decent amount of firepower I decide to just tie him up, try to kill him, then move on with my plan. Moments later I've failed to kill him, and at that moment a Nova, Shadow Cat, and Mauler all show up to help him out. I die horribly after putting out a little over 100 damage and find my entire team all sitting in a ditch waiting to die.

Thats a pretty bad match for me, I probably should have went back when I noticed the panther, but it seems stuff like this happens all the time to some degree. If anyone has any ideas on how to get this done more effectively that would help me out a bit. I like being sneaky in matches with ambushes and suprise assault mechs, but flanking, especially in lighter mechs tends to leave me dead.

As a side note I was thinking of getting a Loki and setting it up with ECM and some sort of build with a UAC or gauss and some lasers so that I could get out high damage quickly, run pretty fast, and have ECM cover along with decent armor. If anyone has tried that out, I'd like your review.

[Sader325]

You need to flank with enough fire power to kill whatever you find before someone can help or to be fast enough to get away after hitting your target.

Basically, flank with a FAST light or a SRM 36 Maddog.

If light, hit and run.

If maddog get behind and annihilate.

[El Bandito]

Flanking should be ideally done with Lights or Mediums. Hellbringer is still decent due to ECM, but if the enemy calls out your position and sics a couple of Lights on you, you will be in big trouble.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 September 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[Sader325]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Flanking should be ideally done with Lights or Mediums. Hellbringer is still decent due to ECM, but if the enemy calls out your position and sics a couple of Lights on you, you will be in big trouble.

Unless you're 7 ER Small with 2 SRM Artemis 6.

In which case said light should be breakfast.

Two lights however....

[Fleeb the Mad]

Doing that in a Kit Fox is tough, though ECM covers many faults.

Normally you need to wait until the enemy is fully engaged and distracted. It sounds like the reason you got demolished is because there was a full enemy lance that was puttering around with nothing to do and nothing to shoot at them if they turned to engage you.

If you try to flank in the early game you're probably in for a lot of trouble because there's too many people looking for someone to engage in the standoff cover fire stage. Try waiting for the teams to move closer together and you'll be able to find a bunch of people with target fixation that you can exploit.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Fleeb the Mad, on 19 September 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Doing that in a Kit Fox is tough, though ECM covers many faults.

Normally you need to wait until the enemy is fully engaged and distracted. It sounds like the reason you got demolished is because there was a full enemy lance that was puttering around with nothing to do and nothing to shoot at them if they turned to engage you.

If you try to flank in the early game you're probably in for a lot of trouble because there's too many people looking for someone to engage in the standoff cover fire stage. Try waiting for the teams to move closer together and you'll be able to find a bunch of people with target fixation that you can exploit.

That does sound exactly right, I find I break off too early in some matches and end up getting shot up bad by some straggling lance who seems very focused on just finding a target. Guess I get a bit impatient, I'm used to using assault mechs, so by the time I get to a battle its usually in full swing or already over.

Also I was about to post asking some questions on beating lights, as all I can kill them with is either small laser spam or precision gauss and PPC, but then someone already posted about streaks, I haven't used those in so long that I forgot about them. I think last time I tried those was the old streak cat back in beta.

I'll try some matches with this new mentality.

[FalconerGray]

That style of KFX can be a lot of fun, although I'd recommend going with either the ECM / UAC5 / x3 ERML / JJ or UAC10 / X2 ERML / JJ as the lasers are a welcome addition to your firepower and the JJ's are a massive help to your mobility.

The Kit Fox isn't really the sort of mech you want to 1v1 people with, but it can be very effective when played smart. For the playstyle you're looking for, you don't want to be finding and engaging enemy mechs on your own - that isn't flanking. In the example you listed, you ended up fighting head to head rather than at an angle, because your target wasn't preoccupied by something else.

You don't want to be hitting fresh targets or being the first to strike, you want to be taking shots at targets that are already engaged. Canyon Network is a great map for this, but to me most effective, you want to wait for the fighting to start and pick targets that are tied up with your big hitters. If someone is busy trying to take down a heavy or assault, that's when they're going to ignore the light mech off to the side. If they're not already being engaged, then you'll only draw attention to yourself and become a target, which is not what you want at all.

Try it again, but be more patient and stay closer to your main force. It can be a lot of fun, but requires a very specific playstyle and great attention to the way the battle is developing, as you need to take advantage of the hot fights and add support where needed.

Good luck!

[Spare Parts Bin]

If you catch people from a distance you get a couple of shots in before they know what hit them. Get some damage in call out who and what. Hope the unit has enough sense to come enmasse.

[Kiiyor]

Flanking just doesn't really work in MWO - at least not in the classically understood sense in real life warfare. If the enemy is really timid, you can get away with it, but usually it's an enterprise doomed to failure.

If you split from your group in MWO you invite being a target for a deathball. Smaller groups are a very tempting snack for a larger force. You also tend to deprive your main force of your firepower, giving more advantages to an enemy team that sticks together and trades while you try to get into position.

What does work in MWO is smaller scale envelopment. Once an enemy force is located, and as long as they are relatively stationary, you can spread out to their flanks and start harassing them from different angles. This allows you to get more guns on the enemy, and will almost always force them back. The key is to stay close enough to your friendlies to allow them to support you if the enemy moves to you, yet be far enough away that the enemy has to move their crosshairs significantly to fire at you.

You also need to stay close enough to your friendlies to be able to move with them if your center of mass splits.

Sticking together is simply the best tactic - IMHO of course.

[MischiefSC]

To flank you need 1 of 2 things -

enough speed to quickly disengage and get away from anything you encounter when it goes wrong

OR

enough firepower to make your flank go 1 way, right through all the enemies.

Otherwise all you've done is split your team up to be slaughtered.

As a given rule flanking is a bad idea on average.

[Tristan Winter]

Kiiyor, on 19 September 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Flanking just doesn't really work in MWO - at least not in the classically understood sense in real life warfare. If the enemy is really timid, you can get away with it, but usually it's an enterprise doomed to failure.

If you split from your group in MWO you invite being a target for a deathball. Smaller groups are a very tempting snack for a larger force. You also tend to deprive your main force of your firepower, giving more advantages to an enemy team that sticks together and trades while you try to get into position.

What does work in MWO is smaller scale envelopment. Once an enemy force is located, and as long as they are relatively stationary, you can spread out to their flanks and start harassing them from different angles. This allows you to get more guns on the enemy, and will almost always force them back. The key is to stay close enough to your friendlies to allow them to support you if the enemy moves to you, yet be far enough away that the enemy has to move their crosshairs significantly to fire at you.

You also need to stay close enough to your friendlies to be able to move with them if your center of mass splits.

Sticking together is simply the best tactic - IMHO of course.

Very good post.

And of course, the risk of trying to envelop the enemy in a pug match is that your team rarely has the fortitude to hold their position once part of the team starts moving. If one lance starts enveloping the enemy team, it very often turns into a situation where your whole team is basically circling the enemy. And then.... Nascar.

To answer the question in the OP, I would say that in order to really flank the opponent effectively and with some degree of safety, you need speed and numbers. 2-3 light mechs or fast mediums can separate quickly from the main group and attack from a different angle. But without speed, the rest of the team won't be able to hold very long and you won't be able to disengage if you have to. Without numbers, you risk running into a Streakcrow or a pair of ACH's who will ruin your day real fast.

Trying to flank solo or with a couple of heavy / assault mechs is really risky. Not to mention that enemies are drawn to isolated heavies / assaults like flies to sh*t. So I guess that's my advice for flanking. Have speed and don't be alone.

[Davers]

The proper term for flanking by yourself is "Walking into an ambush".

[InRev]

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

To flank you need 1 of 2 things -

enough speed to quickly disengage and get away from anything you encounter when it goes wrong
.

The speed also helps because it allows you to rejoin your team's deathball when the big push comes, be it on the defensive or offensive. Too many flankers make the mistake of staying on the flanks, thus leaving their team a body short when they're needed.

They key to good flanking is knowing that it isn't your only, or even main duty. It's a supplementary one, usually because lights and mediums can't trade with the heavies or assaults. It allows you to apply early firepower to soften up the enemy without being the victim of a bad trade. When the main fight comes, though, priority is rejoining the deathball.

[Kiiyor]

Tristan Winter, on 19 September 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Very good post.

And of course, the risk of trying to envelop the enemy in a pug match is that your team rarely has the fortitude to hold their position once part of the team starts moving. If one lance starts enveloping the enemy team, it very often turns into a situation where your whole team is basically circling the enemy. And then.... Nascar.

To answer the question in the OP, I would say that in order to really flank the opponent effectively and with some degree of safety, you need speed and numbers. 2-3 light mechs or fast mediums can separate quickly from the main group and attack from a different angle. But without speed, the rest of the team won't be able to hold very long and you won't be able to disengage if you have to. Without numbers, you risk running into a Streakcrow or a pair of ACH's who will ruin your day real fast.

Trying to flank solo or with a couple of heavy / assault mechs is really risky. Not to mention that enemies are drawn to isolated heavies / assaults like flies to sh*t. So I guess that's my advice for flanking. Have speed and don't be alone.

Very true. If you spread out, you are very vulnerable to a push, but most PUG groups won't charge unless the score board reads at least 6-0, even if the match would absolutely be over if they did.

So it shifts to daytona. All it takes is a few mechs to move and try and get a firing line, and the rest of the team's abandonment issues come to the fore and they will scurry to a position to be able to block your sight lines again.

The trick is not to move so far that you take someone else out of their comfort zone. You want them to think "he's protecting my right side" not "OMG WHERE IS HE GOING?!?!?".

[Ultimax]

Kiiyor, on 19 September 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Flanking just doesn't really work in MWO - at least not in the classically understood sense in real life warfare. If the enemy is really timid, you can get away with it, but usually it's an enterprise doomed to failure.

If you split from your group in MWO you invite being a target for a deathball. Smaller groups are a very tempting snack for a larger force. You also tend to deprive your main force of your firepower, giving more advantages to an enemy team that sticks together and trades while you try to get into position.

What does work in MWO is smaller scale envelopment. Once an enemy force is located, and as long as they are relatively stationary, you can spread out to their flanks and start harassing them from different angles. This allows you to get more guns on the enemy, and will almost always force them back. The key is to stay close enough to your friendlies to allow them to support you if the enemy moves to you, yet be far enough away that the enemy has to move their crosshairs significantly to fire at you.

You also need to stay close enough to your friendlies to be able to move with them if your center of mass splits.

Sticking together is simply the best tactic - IMHO of course.

This.


Do this, and stop trying to flank on your own.


For what you are trying to do in the Kit Fox (a weak mech with low firepower, bad speed & poor armor) you really need to make sure the enemies you are firing on are already engaged with different mechs.

You want to shoot players whose concentration is clearly elsewhere.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 September 2015 - 08:42 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Flanking, as in splitting from the group an going off on your own to shoot the enemy, is a bad strategy. Moving 100m to the side and spreading out in a firing line works. Splitting into two groups of six that are only 200 or 300m away and going to the same place can work too; that's a proper 'flank' and can pin the enemy between two lanes of fire.

One or two mechs is not a 'flank' though. It's going off to die alone. You're going to get shot by a slew of people who will out-firepower you and move to kill you quickly and easily.

[Pjwned]

If you're going to flank, then do it in a mech that's either quite fast (so that you can escape) or has a lot of firepower that can be unloaded quickly on any unsuspecting targets, and if you can have both then that's even better.

That example of UAC10 + small laser is a terrible setup for flanking because the firepower on it is absolutely atrocious; you're better off sticking a C-ER ML instead and skirmishing rather than trying to flank with a build like that, or if you want to change your build for flanking then add more lightweight lasers.

I've been enjoying my WubBack 4P quite a bit lately, and it's really awesome coming up behind mechs and vaporizing their rear armor + internals in about half a second.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 September 2015 - 09:21 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

To be honest, I guess I just get bored of the same thing over and over even if I'm winning. I always come up with side challenges for myself that usually make things harder. I can run the Kit Fox as support with an assault lance and gun down enemies all day, I can stick with a group and peek, I can lead a charge to crush the last bit of opposition, or I can go and cap when we need to, but sometimes I like seeing how things are in the game when you aren't playing it the normal way. I've seen some things, just today I found a quad LRM with tag Orion that would have never seen the light of day otherwise.

I find I like watching battles and influencing them, then seeing how my actions effect an enemy force. Sometimes damage isn't everything. With dual UAC2s I was able to suppress the enemy peekers long enough for our team to stomp over them in one match, in another I lead my timid team to victory with a suicide charge with my Executioner, died horribly but managed to make a whole team of pugs move all at once. I feel as good in those matches as ones in which I single handedly take out an entire lance and then some.

I've just had no luck in situations that require breaking a group off of the main group except when I'm running with my four man team, so I guess if I'm pugging, I'll tone the tactics down a bit

[El Bandito]

Sader325, on 19 September 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Unless you're 7 ER Small with 2 SRM Artemis 6.

In which case said light should be breakfast.

Two lights however....

ER Smalls + SRMs are too short ranged to be an effective flanking weapon, IMO. At that distance, the enemy can return fire very easily and you are in danger of being detected on Seismic.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 September 2015 - 12:13 AM.

[Madcap72]

Dakota1000, on 19 September 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Anyone got any tips for flanking? It seems every time I try to do it theres always at least one guy who just happened to be in the one spot I went. It doesn't matter where I got but theres always someone whos just completely out of place but there to stop me.

They are literally waiting for you, and guys like you because it's so predictable. I like catching guys like that occasionally with my dual goose crab. They'll be all "I'm a sneaking flanking guy" then Baaa GOOOOOSH double guass double ERLL to the face.