83 replies to this topic

[Ted Wayz]

If you have read any number of posts on the knockdown subject you will know I am for collisions but adamantly against knockdowns. The reason is simple, even today's technology of complex gyros could keep a mech upright during the most extreme collision cases in MWO.

But that doesn't mean channeling all computing power to stabilize a mech after a collision shouldn't stun them. If all computing power is used to stabilize the mech then none would be available to perform anything else.

So using math a threshold could be created where a collision would cause a mech to decelerate to zero, wobble like a weeble while the gyros compensate, and lose convergence. Math could then be used to calculate a recovery time.

That I could believe in.

[Novakaine]

+5
This would go a long way in preventing face huggin alpha gitzin.
I love it.
One hundreds plus tons of metal colliding yeah there ought to be some reaction.

[Mister Blastman]

Knockdowns are fine. Stuns are fine. When I got paralyzed or ensnared in spider webs in AD&D, I learned to deal with it. We all need to stop being so soft and toughen up a little. Games of old had these properties in them and they made them better.


Even Dark Souls 1 and 2 have stuns and knockdowns. Those games are hard. But they are awesome. You learn not to get yourself in a situation that could lead to one or the other.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 15 February 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[Lugh]

But I want KNOCKDOWNS, and Death from above.

Given PGI's failure to do even basic math implementations of TT rules to RT, I doubt we will see any of that soon. Though this would be super nice to face slap the l33t light pilots....

[TheArisen]

The problem with knockdowns is how easy it'd be to grief ppl. 11-0, a few jerks decide to knock a guy down for the next 5+ minutes.

But there should be some kind of reaction to collisions. Warping is just dumb.

[Mister Blastman]

TheArisen, on 15 February 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

The problem with knockdowns is how easy it'd be to grief ppl. 11-0, a few jerks decide to knock a guy down for the next 5+ minutes.

But there should be some kind of reaction to collisions. Warping is just dumb.

You don't have to get knocked down. Maneuver away from the mob.

[Monkey Lover]

I think Russ said they would look more into knock downs again but they have to fix the netcode before they do it. You seen the warping we deal with now when we run into other mechs.

[Ted Wayz]

Lugh, on 15 February 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

But I want KNOCKDOWNS, and Death from above.

Given PGI's failure to do even basic math implementations of TT rules to RT, I doubt we will see any of that soon. Though this would be super nice to face slap the l33t light pilots....

Keep in mind TT rules were generated in the early 80's by people who did not know early 80's weapon technology, nonetheless be able to project that to 3050. Otherwise knockdowns would never be in the game.

Besides if you knocked down any mech they would never be able to get up! Explain to me how a locust or raven gets up with no arms. Even mech with arms would not be able to roll over. Mechs do not have the muscles or flexibility we have. So although people say learn to deal with it, if you were knocked down and spent the rest of the match on your back how would you deal with it?

[Lugh]

Ted Wayz, on 15 February 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

Keep in mind TT rules were generated in the early 80's by people who did not know early 80's weapon technology, nonetheless be able to project that to 3050. Otherwise knockdowns would never be in the game.

Besides if you knocked down any mech they would never be able to get up! Explain to me how a locust or raven gets up with no arms. Even mech with arms would not be able to roll over. Mechs do not have the muscles or flexibility we have. So although people say learn to deal with it, if you were knocked down and spent the rest of the match on your back how would you deal with it?

Played with knockdowns in Closed Beta. Did not have a problem with it then, wouldn't have a problem with it now.

The mechs without "arms" would have leg flexibility to allow the chicken claw to get to the right position to be on the ground to lever itself to standing.

To pretend that gyroscopes and computers can't be confused is silly. Mudslides earthquakes and multiple g-force interactions from missles, and ac rounds could easily overload such a system and cause the mech to collapse or 'fall' to the ground.

It WAS in the game until Paul got griefed in a match by KONG where they killed his whole team and spent the rest of the match being knocked over repeatedly by them.

It was gone the next patch.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

I miss dragon bowling.

[El Bandito]

TheArisen, on 15 February 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

The problem with knockdowns is how easy it'd be to grief ppl. 11-0, a few jerks decide to knock a guy down for the next 5+ minutes.

MW4 addressed the issue of knockdown griefing by using a couple of minutes of "grace period" where you cannot be knocked down again. Also, Improved Gyro module can be used to make the mech more resistant to knockdowns. PGI can just implement those--if they are competent enough to code em in.

Ted Wayz, on 15 February 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

Keep in mind TT rules were generated in the early 80's by people who did not know early 80's weapon technology, nonetheless be able to project that to 3050. Otherwise knockdowns would never be in the game.

Besides if you knocked down any mech they would never be able to get up! Explain to me how a locust or raven gets up with no arms. Even mech with arms would not be able to roll over. Mechs do not have the muscles or flexibility we have. So although people say learn to deal with it, if you were knocked down and spent the rest of the match on your back how would you deal with it?

In MW4 all mechs (even those without arms) could get up after knocked down. So what if the animations are not very convincing? This is a game.

Lugh, on 15 February 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

But I want KNOCKDOWNS, and Death from above.

And better JJs. No sense having a Highlander if it cannot perform the Highlander Burial.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 February 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[TheArisen]

Mister Blastman, on 15 February 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

You don't have to get knocked down. Maneuver away from the mob.

Yeah that's not always possible. You can't always tell if someone is going to do that.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 15 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

MW4 addressed the issue of knockdown griefing by using a couple of minutes of "grace period" where you cannot be knocked down again. Also, Improved Gyro module can be used to make the mech more resistant to knockdowns. PGI can just implement those--if they are competent enough to code em in.

What people also forget about MW4 is that you couldn't knock over mechs just by touching them with your body.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 15 February 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

What people also forget about MW4 is that you couldn't knock over mechs just by touching them with your body.

But in MWO beta we could. And we should, again. Maybe it will remind us that we are playing with big mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 February 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[Ted Wayz]

Lugh, on 15 February 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

The mechs without "arms" would have leg flexibility to allow the chicken claw to get to the right position to be on the ground to lever itself to standing.

To pretend that gyroscopes and computers can't be confused is silly. Mudslides earthquakes and multiple g-force interactions from missles, and ac rounds could easily overload such a system and cause the mech to collapse or 'fall' to the ground.

Would have leg flexibility, do tell. Where? There is no flexibility in armor. You know knights had to be helped onto horses and if they were knocked down they were as good as dead.

And the chicken arms would help roll them over, and then their reverse articulated chicken legs would do what? Wow.

And no, if you are familiar with even today's gyroscopes you would not make such a statement as "confused". And I won't even get into the targeting gyroscopes for the weapon systems.

Please go watch a video by DEKA on the iBot and get back to me.

[Bishop Steiner]

No, today's gyros would not keep a massively top heavy, unstable based humanoid machine from toppling, when an equally heavy machine impacts it at high velocity.

Gyros would help minimize chances of tip overs, but don't magically change the laws of physics.

Even with advanced gyros, everything has a tipping point

[Ted Wayz]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

No, today's gyros would not keep a massively top heavy, unstable based humanoid machine from toppling, when an equally heavy machine impacts it at high velocity.

Gyros would help minimize chances of tip overs, but don't magically change the laws of physics.

Even with advanced gyros, everything has a tipping point

Based on what science? I have personally experienced today's advanced gyros and if they projected 1000 years into the future I am sure they would be better.

I was at a demonstration for the iBot. It went from 4 wheels to two tiny wheels with a full grown man in the seat. He held out his hand and asked me to push. Given I used to bench over 3 bills I didn't push my hardest. He laughed and said that wasn't a test and asked me to push as hard as I could. I did and it wobbled a bit but easily stayed upright.

In earlier posts we calculated the force of the collisions from full speed locust hitting an Atlas to an AC 20 round hitting a locust. If you want to convince me that mechs will fall down then I suggest you break out the abacus and prove it.

As for getting up from a knockdown, laughable.

[Mister Blastman]

TheArisen, on 15 February 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yeah that's not always possible. You can't always tell if someone is going to do that.

I can't tell what someone across the street is thinking. But I can plan my path and route to protect myself from shenanigans.

[1453 R]

[Ted Wayz]

El Bandito, on 15 February 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

But in MWO beta we could. And we should, again. Maybe it will remind us that we are playing with big mechs.

And the animations of mechs rolling around and getting up were the most immersion breaking thing ever.

And it is why we do not spawn together. It was great having 12 mechs spawn together and then have half hit the ground when they collided trying to leave the spawn.

Stuns are plausible and can be explained by science. Knockdowns can't.