10 replies to this topic

[Crushko]

Observations:

- Heat dissipates way too slow. Mechs have now basically an attack phase and a cooldown phase. Depending on the build this can be fifty/fifty or worse.

- LBX, Dakka, SRM are in an acceptable state. As long as you dont mix these builds with energy weapons you are fine.

- Lasers and especially double PPCs are totally pointless at this point. A Quad PPC Warhawk is useless because even fired in two weapon groups the PPCs take up the whole heatscale. Lasers might be ok for a hide and peak sniper still, but you dont wanna be a laser boat out in the open or in a brawl as your heatscale fills much too quickly, even if you fire in weapon groups below the ED cap.

Predictions:

- The Poke&Hide Meta will reach new extremes for a simple reason: The ultimate reason to seek cover is when you cannot shot. And because you spend now a good amount of your time slowly cooling down, you have to hide more than ever.

- Mixed builds will be seen less. There is hardly any reason to mix in lasers for a LBX/SRM or Dakka build. For example on live you can at least once fire lasers and lbx in sync, then continue with lbx only. Do that with ED and your heatscale is full.

- People will bring Heavy Dakka mechs and SRM Light Mechs. Assault Mechs will have to go through the same bottlenecks and will be nothing more than slow moving big targets. Sure they are great at tanking dmg, however this is not rewarded in the game.

Suggestions (in case you stick with ED)::

- Decrease Laser and especially PPC heat generation
- Make Heat Dissipation faster again
- Give Lights a 20, Mediums a 25, Heavys a 30 and Assaults a 35 ED cap. One size fits all aint working
- Give incentives to bring mixed builds; GH achieved this via unlinked heat penality weapon groups

Conclusion::

For now the advantages of GH outweigh those of ED - imo. Yes, ED limits Alphas, but it will - most likely - lead to more hiding and less mixed builds.

[Wintersdark]

The lower heat cap is excellent, and having engine DHS work the same as the rest of the DHS are both great things.

The former because it moves towards removing the need for GH/ED, the later because it fixes lights and other mechs that want to run sub-250 rated engines, which are broken under the current (live) system.

However, for this to work, dissipation needs to be higher than Live, and it's lower than live right now.

Low cap, high dissipation. Mechs should cool fast, but not be able to fire as much all at once.

[xe N on]

Crushko, on 13 September 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

- Give Lights a 20, Mediums a 25, Heavys a 30 and Assaults a 35 ED cap. One size fits all aint working

Definitely no. Because of the scale up of most of the light and even some mediums, both are currently suffering.

A lot of assaults and especially heavies are already much to mobile compared to mediums, while having more armor and higher firepower and sometimes even better quirks.

Heavies and assaults really don't need more advantages. Mediums and light need.

Edited by xe N on, 13 September 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Crushko]

xe N on, on 13 September 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

A lot of assaults and especially heavies are already much to mobile compared to mediums, while having more armor and higher firepower and sometimes even better quirks.

Heavies and assaults really don't need more advantages. Mediums and light need.

I dont think we will agree here.

While for example Jenners (IIcs) are among my favourite mechs, I dont think that a 100 ton assault should go through the same bottleneck as a 35 ton Light. That wouldnt feel right, not only from a lore and mech game history perspective, but also from a game logic perspective:

Bigger = more punch.

Wintersdark, on 13 September 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

The lower heat cap is excellent, and having engine DHS work the same as the rest of the DHS are both great things.

The former because it moves towards removing the need for GH/ED, the later because it fixes lights and other mechs that want to run sub-250 rated engines, which are broken under the current (live) system.

However, for this to work, dissipation needs to be higher than Live, and it's lower than live right now.

Low cap, high dissipation. Mechs should cool fast, but not be able to fire as much all at once.

Yea, thats also what I thought on PTS, the low Cap would be ok, if GH/ED were gone and Dissipation would be raised back up to what we have on live.

Frankly thats not on the table atm, but if they want to have only one primary Heatscale thats the way to go.

[Wintersdark]

Crushko, on 13 September 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

I dont think we will agree here.

While for example Jenners (IIcs) are among my favourite mechs, I dont think that a 100 ton assault should go through the same bottleneck as a 35 ton Light. That wouldnt feel right, not only from a lore and mech game history perspective, but also from a game logic perspective:

Bigger = more punch.

Larger Ed caps aren't necessary there. In PTS3, assaults have more punch as it stands. Sure, everyone is capped at 30pt alphas, but:

1) A 30pt alpha light does that at VERY short range, and builds much heat doing it with little ability to shed that heat.
2) An assault can project those 30pt alphas several times further, and can fire multiple consecutive 30pt strikes because of course they are not required to fire all their weapons at once.
3) An assault can pack far more DHS, allowing it to output more damage over time.

So, even with flat 30ED caps, assaults hit further and more often. Having individual strikes be harder is unnecessary: if lights can't hit hard, the weakest class gets weaker than it already is, and if you go the other way and let assaults hit harder then you remove the whole point of ED.

A locust with 6ML's and 10dhs doesn't have a fraction the firepower that a 2PPC+gauss mech with 18dhs has.


This is a commonly suggested idea, but it's poorly thought out. It's just that it sounds "logical" so people take to it.

[cazidin]

Wintersdark, on 13 September 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

The lower heat cap is excellent, and having engine DHS work the same as the rest of the DHS are both great things.

The former because it moves towards removing the need for GH/ED, the later because it fixes lights and other mechs that want to run sub-250 rated engines, which are broken under the current (live) system.

However, for this to work, dissipation needs to be higher than Live, and it's lower than live right now.

Low cap, high dissipation. Mechs should cool fast, but not be able to fire as much all at once.

You're absolutely right. A low heat cap but high heat dissipation rate was what we wanted to test but PGI decided to nerf both and will likely revert back to the old way, saying that a lower heat cap just won't work.

[Deathlike]

Every single time the 30 heat cap comes up.. it's usually followed with full 2.0 DHS request.

I don't even understand why we can't even test that out straight up... at least for science.

Now having a reduced heatcap in conjunction with an overall nerf of dissipation (with the math reaffirming this straight up), there's less of a reason to run heat generating builds and more of a reason to go full dakka.

If anything, it's RNG-level idea picking and not understanding the core consequences of the idea.


Also to the OP... your ED idea is terrible for weight classes, since Lights are already the most underpowered class in the game. A secondary nerf when the current PTS's dissipation is affecting them even more than before is insane.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 September 2016 - 11:10 AM.

[Crushko]

Wintersdark, on 13 September 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Larger Ed caps aren't necessary there. In PTS3, assaults have more punch as it stands. Sure, everyone is capped at 30pt alphas, but:

1) A 30pt alpha light does that at VERY short range, and builds much heat doing it with little ability to shed that heat.
2) An assault can project those 30pt alphas several times further, and can fire multiple consecutive 30pt strikes because of course they are not required to fire all their weapons at once.
3) An assault can pack far more DHS, allowing it to output more damage over time.

So, even with flat 30ED caps, assaults hit further and more often. Having individual strikes be harder is unnecessary: if lights can't hit hard, the weakest class gets weaker than it already is, and if you go the other way and let assaults hit harder then you remove the whole point of ED.

A locust with 6ML's and 10dhs doesn't have a fraction the firepower that a 2PPC+gauss mech with 18dhs has.


This is a commonly suggested idea, but it's poorly thought out. It's just that it sounds "logical" so people take to it.

Nice example with the locust. A locust should be there to distract the enemy, capture points or provide target info/locks etc. pp. I certainly wouldnt ever see that mech as something that has to be competitive firepower wise.

I just tried an Oxide vs Atlas on Testing Grounds PTS. You can take the Atlas down by shooting it in the back, before your heatscale is full. Not to mention that a Light can circle strafe, quickly engage and disengage.

But its no only about lights. If there is a strict 30 ED bottleneck, player will just play the best variant for this bottleneck. And this most likely will be a fast heavy instead of a slow Assault.

[Wintersdark]

Crushko, on 13 September 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Nice example with the locust. A locust should be there to distract the enemy, capture points or provide target info/locks etc. pp. I certainly wouldnt ever see that mech as something that has to be competitive firepower wise.

Except the only thing that matters in MWO is combat ability. All that other stuff a combat capable light can do to, and every bit as well. A mech that can't fight is a waste of a slot on a team.

But the same applies with Jenner's or anything else. It's worse for the Jenner's actually because unlike locusts nobody misses a Jenner's CT.

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I just tried an Oxide vs Atlas on Testing Grounds PTS. You can take the Atlas down by shooting it in the back, before your heatscale is full. Not to mention that a Light can circle strafe, quickly engage and disengage.

So? Not sure your point. Anyone can kill an Atlas from the rear in the testing grounds without maxing heat scale, that's not an accomplishment.

Wait, are you one of those underhive folks who feel that lights are OP as it stands and poor assaults are suffering as it stands? (Despite all non-underhive evidence to the contrary, particularly how in EVERY tournament light match scores are very low compared to assaults, and how lights are the least played weight class)... If that's where this is coming from, my response can be summed up as: Nevermind, this conversation is stupid.

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But its no only about lights. If there is a strict 30 ED bottleneck, player will just play the best variant for this bottleneck. And this most likely will be a fast heavy instead of a slow Assault.

That's silly. You understand that no matter what the cap, you can still carry more weapons, right?

I'd take a Kodiak against any fast heavy in PTS3, any day. Sure, we're both firing 30 damage at a time... I'm just firing 30 damage bursts twice as fast.

ED only limits firepower in very extreme cases. It spreads fire, but doesn't limit it.

Now, bigger heavies will remain more popular than assaults, but that's because of MWO and how agility scales, not because of ED; it's like that on live too. But it won't be light heavies dominating, they aren't fast enough, have too little armor, and too little firepower.


Again: ED only limits firepower in very extreme cases. Otherwise it just spreads it.

Edited by Wintersdark, 13 September 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[Crushko]

Its not only about the theoretical changes that a 30 Energy bottleneck does, its also psychological or game logical. When there is a 30 "one size fits all" bottleneck, target priorites will change.

On live Assaults draw the most attention, If an enemy Atlas and a Hunchback come around the corner the vast majority will focus the Atlas, because they are afraid of the Atlas Firepower.
With ED people wont say "but the Atlas can sustain those 30 DMG longer". They will say "they both do 30 DMG to me, so I will take out the guy with less armor first".

Everyone that played Real Time Strategy games online, will know that. People will focus units with the most perceived Firepower. If the Firepower is perceived equal, the units with less armor gets focused first. Thats just how it is.

[Elizander]

Just don't make it too hard for the newbies.