38 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

Maybe start lights at 40
mediums at 45
heavies at 50
assaults at 55?

or 30>40>50>60


Something like that?

It is a lot easier for an assault mech to hit 40 than a SDR 5V even before the dissipation.

I haven't tested it, but I have a feeling this will hamper energy based assaults more than anything else.

[Dracol]

From what I have been reading (haven't tested it yet though), mechs that were running only base 10 hs were hit hard. Lights and mediums contain the most mechs needing to run this low HS count due to limited weight. Your idea would further the gap between lights / mediums and heavies / assaults. If anything, it should be inverted from a game play stand point. Lights get the most, assaults get the least.

[Y E O N N E]

The Lights that have a dissipation quirk due to the sub-250 engine feel good; PGI should leave those quirks in place.

[kapusta11]

Why should already inferior lights and mediums have worse heat caps?

[process]

Heavier mechs can afford to invest their tonnage into heatsinks, if they want to output higher damage.

[Six-Pack]

I'd rather tie it to the engine power rating.

[Khobai]

There should absolutely be different heat caps for different weight classes

An assault should not have the same heatcap as a light. That is absurd.

30/40/50/60 or 40/45/50/55 seem like good starting points to me.

process, on 18 August 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

Heavier mechs can afford to invest their tonnage into heatsinks, if they want to output higher damage.

Wrong. You seem to have heat capacity and dissipation confused.

Under the new system, more heatsinks only increases dissipation. It doesnt increase capacity or alphastrike output.

Were talking about alphastrike output. An assault should be able to fire more weapons at once than a light mech.

Why you ask? For the simple reason that an assault takes more risks when it pokes than a light does (its bigger, slower, cant torso twist as well, etc). So the assault needs a higher reward for that added risk.

If assaults and lights do the same damage when they poke, but assaults assume more risk, why would anyone ever use an assault for poking? Think about it. That is why assaults need a higher heat cap.

Six-Pack, on 19 August 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

I'd rather tie it to the engine power rating.

Nope. Why should an assault with a 300 engine have the same heat cap as a light with a 300 engine?

An assault should never have the same heat cap as a light.

Remember not all assaults can increase their engine sizes either. Some have low engine caps or physically cant change their engines.

Heat cap should be determined by weight class. And certain mechs, like energy only mechs, should also get quirks that increase heat cap. Simply because they lack the option to use lower heat weapons.

If this heatcap nonsense is going to be tested, lets at least do it the right way.... with different heat caps for different weight classes.

Edited by Khobai, 19 August 2018 - 09:15 AM.

[Dracol]

Khobai, on 19 August 2018 - 09:05 AM, said:

Why you ask? For the simple reason that an assault takes more risks when it pokes than a light does (its bigger, slower, cant torso twist as well, etc). So the assault needs a higher reward for that added risk.

From a gameplay stand point, why should lights which have the least amount of armor/internal structure, tonnage for weapons and heat sinks, be further gimped compared to assaults?

The flaw of prior Mechwarrior titles was the race to max tonnage. Just fine for a single player game, not so much for a PvP like MWO. Lights are currently the least played mech class. Your idea would just compound the problem further.

Edited by Dracol, 19 August 2018 - 10:01 AM.

[Khobai]

Dracol, on 19 August 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

From a gameplay stand point, why should lights which have the least amount of armor/internal structure, tonnage for weapons and heat sinks, be further gimped compared to assaults?

Because they weigh less. Less weight means you carry less stuff. So of course they should have less armor, weapons, and heatsinks.

Lights are not supposed to be equal to Assaults in combat. They arnt in battletech. They shouldnt be in MWO either.

The problem is MWO failed to create ticket based gamemodes where you can buy several lights for the same cost an assault. And they failed to create gamemodes where the speed of lights is an asset. Conquest is sadly the only gamemode where the speed of lights actually matters.

Its mostly a gamemode failure.

Edited by Khobai, 19 August 2018 - 06:25 PM.

[Dracol]

Khobai, on 19 August 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

Because they weigh less. Less weight meants you carry less stuff. So of course they should have less armor, weapons, and heatsinks.

Lights are not supposed to be equal to Assaults in combat. They arnt in battletech. They shouldnt be in MWO either.

The problem is MWO failed to create ticket based gamemodes where you can buy several lights for the same cost an assault. And they failed to create gamemodes where the speed of lights is an asset. Conquest is sadly the only gamemode where the speed of lights actually matters.

Its mostly a gamemode failure.

So I made this point in an edit, which seems was posted while you were writing your reply:
The flaw of prior Mechwarrior titles was the race to max tonnage. Just fine for a single player game, not so much for a PvP like MWO. Lights are currently the least played mech class. Your idea would just compound the problem further.

Oh and edit to add, I completely disagree with your premise that Lights are not supposed to be equal to Assaults in combat. I know you're a big assault fan Khobai, so your bias is understandable. I prefer mediums and lights myself.

Edited by Dracol, 19 August 2018 - 10:19 AM.

[process]

Khobai, on 19 August 2018 - 09:05 AM, said:

There should absolutely be different heat caps for different weight classes

An assault should not have the same heatcap as a light. That is absurd.

30/40/50/60 or 40/45/50/55 seem like good starting points to me.


Wrong. You seem to have heat capacity and dissipation confused.

Under the new system, more heatsinks only increases dissipation. It doesnt increase capacity or alphastrike output.

Were talking about alphastrike output. An assault should be able to fire more weapons at once than a light mech.

Why you ask? For the simple reason that an assault takes more risks when it pokes than a light does (its bigger, slower, cant torso twist as well, etc). So the assault needs a higher reward for that added risk.

If assaults and lights do the same damage when they poke, but assaults assume more risk, why would anyone ever use an assault for poking? Think about it. That is why assaults need a higher heat cap.

No, I am speaking to dissipation. Greater dissipation means you can fire more frequently and sustain higher damage output. As it's been pointed out to me, lights generally do not carry many heatsinks and are not benefited greatly under this new system. They are inherently heat limited. Your proposal only serves to allow heavier mechs the ability to maintain their high-laser-alpha dominance without giving anything to lighter mechs.

Also consider lights cannot carry, without much sacrifice, heavier weapons that tend to have better heat/weight.

[Hiten Bongz]

Khobai, on 19 August 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

Because they weigh less. Less weight meants you carry less stuff. So of course they should have less armor, weapons, and heatsinks.

Lights are not supposed to be equal to Assaults in combat. They arnt in battletech. They shouldnt be in MWO either.

The problem is MWO failed to create ticket based gamemodes where you can buy several lights for the same cost an assault. And they failed to create gamemodes where the speed of lights is an asset. Conquest is sadly the only gamemode where the speed of lights actually matters.

Its mostly a gamemode failure.

You do have good points. In fact I feel that you are correct, but at the same time you admit in your last paragraph - to which I also agree - that the "proper" implementation of lights is lacking in this game. So with that known, you need to understand that there also should to be a bit of give-and-take with them, otherwise they'd be nearly/fully useless in comparison to heavier mechs. If MWO had better roles for lights to partake in while contributing for the win (eg., every round is conquest-ish), your points would ring wholly true. But since almost every game mode devolves into "which team can pwn the other first," or let's just say is "combat oriented," lights need to sit somewhat closer to other mechs in terms of performance, otherwise we might as well remove them from the game, because nobody would use them.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 19 August 2018 - 10:55 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Heavies don't need any help. They're great as always. Because they have the right mixture of mobility, armor, and firepower. I mean they already max out on dubs. While assaults have to pay up a lot of tonnage to up engine for more dubs than a heavy.

I think 5 more cap for assaults so they can do what they do best. And higher dissipation for lights and the low end mediums that can't afford dubs due to weight restrictions, since they were hurt by the new changes.

Going higher than that on the cap, in my opinion, just defeats the whole freaking point of the changes while still retaining the improved dissipation.

Edited by MechaBattler, 19 August 2018 - 11:46 AM.

[xe N on]

Xetelian, on 17 August 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

Maybe start lights at 40
mediums at 45
heavies at 50
assaults at 55?

or 30>40>50>60


Something like that?

It is a lot easier for an assault mech to hit 40 than a SDR 5V even before the dissipation.

I haven't tested it, but I have a feeling this will hamper energy based assaults more than anything else.

The whole sense behind the cap of 40 is to limit alpha strikes of lasers (all other weapons do not have that high heat). Better dissipation but low heat cap still means, that assaults are still much better at total DPS than lighter mechs, since they can equip alot more heatsinks. But they need to stagger their fire. They can also alternatively mix laser weapons with heavy but low-heat weapons like Gauss to increase their alpha strike damage.

So it would be complete contra productive to introduce class based heat caps.

I could only imagine to make the heat cap slightly dependent on the engine rating. That would especially help Omnimechs with high engine rating that currently only taking valuable tons.

Edited by xe N on, 19 August 2018 - 12:06 PM.

[Ragedog4]

Xetelian and Khobai im looking at your stats and they show you play Majority Assaults so it seems your view is quite bias on this. It seems you don't want to Balance, but instead change things without changing what you personally love.

Raising all mechs to 45 might be fine, but giving a gap like 40/45/50/55 because they are different sizes is quite selfish for a first person shooter. If you are scared of lights, which are way weaker right now, because they are out moving your assaults then you practice to get better/adapt. You don't try to nerf everyone else to match your personal view.

I would love some of my own mechs to be better, WOW would I love to buff the Victor and Brawling Summoner, I myself do not play lights as much, but wow do they and most Meds need help. I dont want a game where I just win in a few of my fav mechs, I want a game that is balanced that my and my teams SKILL and TACTICS win the day. Where a mech I think looks dumb and I hate kicks my *** because the Player knows how to play. Not your Assault ONLY because IT plays better.

So please do not look at what is bad for just you, look at what is best to change for ALL MECHS and ALL PLAYERS so more stay, more come back, and we can love the game longer and have more fun. Thx.

[SFC174]

I'm not an assault primary (heavies and then mediums, although if you look at last 5 seasons I'm pretty balanced) and I agree that different weights need different caps.

The fundamental issue is that on energy based mechs (I'm really focused on Clan Battlemechs with primarily or only energy hardpoints so let's not talk about omnis or mixed builds right now) being an assault doesn't give you any fundamental advantage in single salvo dmg potential over much lighter mechs.

Yes, they can stagger fire more, but against a smaller, faster opponent with a big enough hardpoint count to mount enough energy weapons, the throw weight for a single salvo is no different. You could compare an HBK-IIC-A to a MAD-IIC for example with a base loadout of 2xHLL and 3xERML and 23 heatsinks for the HBK/30 for the MAD (Right now the MAD can also mount an additional 3 ERML without ghost heat). Both can alpha the same amount and the more mobile HBK (with jump jets and 20 kph more speed) will be back out of sight before the MAD can bring its extra firepower into play.

Properly managed the HBK can actually trade 1:1 with the 35 ton heavier mech and perhaps even do better due to being harder to hit/maintain a burn on. While the MAD has more armor and thus can eventually win a 1:1 trade fest, I really don't think that the medium should be able to trade on equal ground with the assault.

You may disagree, but I have a major issue with the nerfing this PTS applies to battlemechs with mass energy hardpoints (the heavier the worse it gets). When I play lights or mediums and I come across an assault, I seek to use my mobility to obtain flanking shots or back shots where my lesser firepower and armor aren't the handicap they would be in a face to face fight. This PTS changes that dynamic and it feels wrong.

[Ragedog4]

SFC174, according to your stats you are right, assaults are your 2nd most used. You mostly use Heavys and not much meds and barely lights. So...still a bit bias when Heavy and Assault Mechs are king right now. Once again your statements only benifit you and not everyone else and the game as a whole. You need to accept your fav mechs might be changed if they are over preforming. We want Balance for everyone, not just to buff you, or me, or any one person. All. That is Balance.

[FireStoat]

The mechs that gained bonus heat recovery quirks due to having a smaller sized engine and no ability to swap it (cougar, adder, kitfox, etc) are having that bonus amplified by the new test server heat recovery rate, so they're still doing mostly okay. It's the mechs without that bonus and no real option to add a substantial amount of heat sinks that are screwed. The Black Lanner and Ice Ferret are the big losers here.

It might be extra work, but if PGI is very determined to go with this new system, all light and medium mechs that don't have a lot of options for slapping in more heat sinks due to their design purpose might need individual quirk tweaking for heat recovery.

Edit - Certain Assault mechs need a slightly higher cap, as noted above. The Marauder IIC just sitting there has 9 energy hardpoints and no real way to use them. I toyed around with 2 heavy large, 5 medium pulse and it barely escapes overheating with an alpha, but then can fire the mediums all day long while slowly recovering heat. Okay, we want to avoid laser vomit so that's a good thing. if I shift gears and go with 3 ER PPC's which is what it has as a default lore build, I get screwed on heat vs damage vs recovery time. I mean, screwed badly. Ballistic assaults just laugh at it. The Marauder IIC and Warhawk Prime need a bone thrown at them if this is to go through.

Edited by FireStoat, 19 August 2018 - 04:46 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Xetelian, on 17 August 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

Maybe start lights at 40
mediums at 45
heavies at 50
assaults at 55?

or 30>40>50>60


Something like that?

It is a lot easier for an assault mech to hit 40 than a SDR 5V even before the dissipation.

I haven't tested it, but I have a feeling this will hamper energy based assaults more than anything else.

Instead of giving heavier mechs a flat out bonus to heat cap as you propose, why not tie it to a limited resource that forces the player to sacrifice something for it, and then scale it to tonnage or weight class?

i.e. tie it to the heat containment nodes on the skill tree.

increase the current % improvement for taking those nodes based on weight/weight class potentially, and give players the option to choose to increase their heat containment or use the skill tree points elsewhere.

If the % improvement remains flat as it is now, there's less tailoring effect. Scale it so it becomes more attractive at certain points (based on weight, class etc) and suddenly it becomes more interesting and something someone is more likely to take, forcing a give and take internal monologue.

Flat out improvement to the heat cap is fine if we're talking about a universal bonus (i.e. setting the current floor to 42 or 46 instead of the tested 40), but giving bonuses simply for the weight class, with no expenditure of resources isn't the best balancing option imo.

[SFC174]

Ragedog4, on 19 August 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

SFC174, according to your stats you are right, assaults are your 2nd most used. You mostly use Heavys and not much meds and barely lights. So...still a bit bias when Heavy and Assault Mechs are king right now. Once again your statements only benifit you and not everyone else and the game as a whole. You need to accept your fav mechs might be changed if they are over preforming. We want Balance for everyone, not just to buff you, or me, or any one person. All. That is Balance.

Now you're starting to get on my nerves. You're basically dismissing an argument because of who made it instead of assessing it on the merits. That's call an ad hominim argument and it's a fallacious tactic....and now you've done it twice.

Even if you do want to play that b.s. game, look at my stats for the last 5 seasons. 18% each in lights and assaults, 27% in mediums and 37% in heavies which means I'm advocating for changes that would give assaults an advantage over mechs I play 82% of the time over the last 5 seasons and 84% of the time over the last 10 seasons.

Why don't you make an argument about why its ok for an assault and a medium to have the same alpha potential despite the assault being nearly twice the weight, packing more engine and heatsinks, etc. If you really want to get into the ad hom attacks we can post resumes and compare from there......

Edited by SFC174, 19 August 2018 - 05:13 PM.