32 replies to this topic

[Universe Man]

I finally grinded through three Hunchbacks. I must say, the G and the J stock models are terrible (for me). The SP turned out to be an incredible winner.

But, now I'm ready to move on. Before the HBK, I had my eyes set on the Dragon. But, since then I've been seeing the Cataphract in a new light. I understand the Dragon can be quicker, which I like, but how much firepower/armor does it lose out to the Cataphract in turn?

I can afford either and am having fun enough with my SP to grind out enough credits regardless of cost. Already have 6.2mil saved up.

I'd like to get your thoughts on how these compare and maybe which builds you recommend for someone who's no longer a newb to the game, but will be to either model he chooses.

[Fred013]

I have taken out a dragon's arm in my raven, and afterwards it lost most of its weapons and ran away. I see a similarity between a dragon's right arm and a hunchback's right torso.

[Loqgar]

In the dragon Its mostly a hit and run type mech that needs a lot of cover and positioning, The cataphract is a little bit more of a brawler or fire support. I would recommend staying away from the 4x as it is a limited platform and will only allow for a narrow range of builds. I would recommend a Cataphract-2x with 2 srm4 1 ac10 and 3ML. Std 300.

[Carrioncrows]

I've had great luck with the 1C model. The 4 energy mounts help a lot.

Right now I have

Ac10 x 2 tons ammo
x2 Med lasers
PPC
XL325 engine
13 DHS
Endo

The best dragon builds are not the ones that are built for the Alpha strike but built for endurance. 4 Med lasers can be exceptionally powerful when you can continuously use them.



I ran this before getting an XL

Edited by Carrioncrows, 09 December 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[WaddeHaddeDudeda]

Dragons are basically bigger medium mechs.

No wait - they're basically bigger and BAD medium mechs.
Go for the Cataphract and pass on the Dragon. It can't mount many of the cool weapons in the right combinations and is really fragile.

A little offtopic: why didn't you configured your 4J similar to the 4SP? Grinding would've been much more fun then since it can exactly hold the same stuff as the 4SP.

[Vosenbergen]

WaddeHaddeDudeda, on 09 December 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Dragons are basically bigger medium mechs.

No wait - they're basically bigger and BAD medium mechs.
Go for the Cataphract and pass on the Dragon. It can't mount many of the cool weapons in the right combinations and is really fragile.

A little offtopic: why didn't you configured your 4J similar to the 4SP? Grinding would've been much more fun then since it can exactly hold the same stuff as the 4SP.

That's pretty unfair to the Dragon...I absolutely love my 1C...Dragons are great light hunters and very good at softening up targets for brawlers...you aren't meant to brawl in them...

with an XL360 engine you'll be running as fast as a Commando...in a heavy...

I like mine with 2 LL and 2 MPL as well, using the ballistics arm purely to draw fire...people seem to love shooting off the ballistics arm without realizing I have no ballistics...averaging 4-500 damage a game, a few kills here and there. Skill level required to make the thing work is pretty rough though...your CT is pretty much twice the size of an Atlas', so you constantly have to keep on the move. If you play it like a really high firepower light mech, they work just fine.

I quite like the Dragon, but I can't speak much for the Cataphract...the 2X is interesting, but I'm not super interested in brawling, so I haven't found anything to like in the chassis

[MavRCK]

Cataphract. The dragon suffers from ooorly designed hard points.

[WaddeHaddeDudeda]

Vosenbergen, on 09 December 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

That's pretty unfair to the Dragon...I absolutely love my 1C...Dragons are great light hunters and very good at softening up targets for brawlers...you aren't meant to brawl in them...

with an XL360 engine you'll be running as fast as a Commando...in a heavy...

I like mine with 2 LL and 2 MPL as well, using the ballistics arm purely to draw fire...people seem to love shooting off the ballistics arm without realizing I have no ballistics...averaging 4-500 damage a game, a few kills here and there. Skill level required to make the thing work is pretty rough though...your CT is pretty much twice the size of an Atlas', so you constantly have to keep on the move. If you play it like a really high firepower light mech, they work just fine.

I quite like the Dragon, but I can't speak much for the Cataphract...the 2X is interesting, but I'm not super interested in brawling, so I haven't found anything to like in the chassis

To each his own. So if you're enjoying the Dragon its fine.

But please keep in mind that

1) Lights are supposed to hunt down lights. Heavies are supposed to take down mainly heavies, assaults and sometimes mediums.

2) When you're running with a 60 tonner as fast as a 25er then you almost have the same fire"power" as them (which is bad - speed doesn't kills, weapons kill!).

3) You easily can squeeze in 2 LL into a Jenner, a mech half of the tonnage of a Dragon with almost 80 % of its firepower.


As for the 2X: if you don't want to brawl with it try 3 LL + a Gauss. I'm pretty sure you'll like it.

[Vosenbergen]

I'll give that phract a shot, thanks!

As for hunting lights, I don't mean go off and kill scouts...but in the process of supporting the assaults you can really ruin the day of that pesky Jenner pilot...

Plus I tend to circle atlases and rear core them fairly often...I find it very effective, but I could see how someone would dislike using a heavy in a similar role to a light

[Pariah Devalis]

4x is my preferred cataphract platform next to the IM. I do not run AC spam. The arms are perfectly good places for gauss rifles, as convergence is only an issue at 200 or less range, and grants a nice range of fire. Backed up by medium lasers and a ton of armor on a standard engine, it's a sniper that can take a pounding.

[Universe Man]

Hey thanks for all the input, guys. I'm still not sure which mech I want to try. After getting the SP maxed out, I hink I'm addicted to speed Or, I'm on speed

But, the Cataphract does sound tempting and would be something completely different.

I'm thinking I can't go wrong with my choice...just wanted some input to help me decide.

Appreciate the input.

[4lex]

HBK are my fav mech so far i have one of each version with all the juicy upgrade and currently working on my master level on the 3 that doesnt have it yet. It doesnt mean much, sorry if it sound like bragging, just saying im a real HBK fan boy. I have tryed the dragon and to me it felt like a bad hunchback. Its a bit faster but its stuck with bad hard point and a huge nose that seem to go red before the side torso every game. If your addicted to speed maybe trying light is the way to go for you or a cicada.

But if you wana try some thing with more beef to it that doesnt feel like a weird HBK, then go for phract. The 4X is my fav its 100% bang bang either (4x AC/2) or (2x UAC/5 + 2x AC/5) or (2x AC/10 + 2x AC/2) take some time getting used to the balistic tough. 1X is cool for lazor boating like 5 Llazor. the 2X missile ... well... its kinda wierd having SRM6 in the arm. It kinda mess with my aim even tough they go where the "o" aim is its just strange to me

[Ronin Starwalker]

I have run all dragons and all cataphracts, they are the only mechs I play exclusively at this point. I am an experienced heavy mech pilot and I'll give you some of my views.

In terms of armor there isn't much difference. The dragon is generally faster and very well armored for a 60 ton mech. The cataphracts armor is slightly more but negligible in my opinion for it's 10 tons more weight. (i.e. dragon arm 40 armor, cataphract arm 44 armor). The dragon has limited firepower in comparison, this is where the cataphract shines. If you want atlas-like firepower in a form just over half it's size, this is your mech. If you want mobility, dragon, firepower cataphract.

The dragon has all 3 hardpoints, although the missle slot/s in the CT is limited (no big LRM's) but safe. The mobile arms are a huge advantage esp for laser based weapons and circle strafing. The huge CT is a problem especially at long range, you will cop a lot of damage. The dragon is good with XL engines even when brawling. Dragon shines against mediums and below.

The cataphract has energy and ballistic hardpoints, except the 2x. Arm movement is limited. If you brawl with a cataphract, I would advise against XL engines, although I do use one because I tend to prefer some big guns. Cataphract shines against mediums and above.

You need to find out what roles you enjoy playing and go from there. If you like hit and run, skirmishing and support roles, then the dragon is a better mech. If you like brawling, taking point in a lance, lots of firepower, jump jets even, take the phract.

I love both mechs, although the cataphract 2X is my favourite mech at this point due to it's speed, hardpoint versatility and firepower.

Edited by Ronin Starwalker, 09 December 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[Elizander]

Universe Man, on 09 December 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I finally grinded through three Hunchbacks. I must say, the G and the J stock models are terrible (for me). The SP turned out to be an incredible winner.

You can actually buy the 4SP first, then the J, then throw the equipment that the 4SP has on the J (since it can handle it). The only flaw is having all your eggs on the right torso, but it does the exact same job with the option of having 6 Medium Lasers instead of 5. Makes it less painful to play with the J.

[Universe Man]

Thanks against for the input everyone. I decided to go with a Cataphract. I really wanted to try the Dragon, but since I got a pretty nice experience with the 4SP (running around at ~86 to support whoever needs it), the Cataphract will give me a completely new experience.

I figure if I keep playing the way I do, I'll be ready for Dragons by next week

What a fun game!

[Mavairo]

Dragons are amazing when piloted correctly.
People that say they suck, well they suck in them and blame the chassis.
the Dragon is a mech built for surgical strikes it's not a big blunder tank like a cataphract.
It's a nimble, limb removing, high speed, death dealer.

Also the dragons, benefit more than most from blinging out in high priced toys. Double Sinks, XL engines, and Endo steel are Mandatory for the dragon. Nothing less will do.
Big powerful and expensive weapons also make it solid. Large Lasers, AC10s, LBx10s, Gauss (kinda meh on a dragon in my opinion), AC5s, (the cheapest or second cheapest weapon for a dragon) and SRMs are the way to go.

My primary dragon is the 1N
XL300 87.1 kph
Endo Steel
Double Sinks
2 Large Lasers
1 AC5
2SRM4s

It's Calvary, you hit hard, hit fast and keep moving. (All proper dragons are this way)

1C
2 Large Lasers
2 medium lasers
1 SRM6
XL360 engine With this engine and speed tweak I move at 104.7
Endo Steel
Double Sinks
Armor is only 2 points under maximum total armor capable as well on this dragon.

my 5N, is actually becoming one of my favorites. it's much maligned for really no reason other than people that think "3 ballistic that means 2 gauss hur hur hur!" No. You only use 1 or 2 ballistics. the 5Ns best asset is, once you learn how to -really- aim in MWO, that it has the single best traversing (both X, Y, and Z axis) arms in the game. period.
XL300 87.1 kph
Endo
Double Sinks
either AC10
SRM6
2 Large lasers

or,
XL 300
Endo
Double Sinks
2 AC5s
2 Large Lasers.

Sure yeah, most people will gravitate towards the Sniper (gauss kitty) or the Big Clunker. But frankly a well built dragon will tear any of those 2 to pieces. It has sheer speed on it's side. Also the arms when fully armored up, are quite durable. And are some of the best precision shooters assets on the field in MWO. The dragon is a skirmisher, support mech or extreme mobility sniper mech. Unless the battle has become a pitched fight, the dragon is no brawler. And that is where most people fail. They don't realize you're supposed to actually stay mobile in a dragon. Then they blame it on the mech when they get turned into molten slag.

Edited by Mavairo, 10 December 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Selfish]

Mavairo, on 09 December 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Dragons are amazing when piloted correctly.
People that say they suck, well they suck in them and blame the chassis.
the Dragon is a mech built for surgical strikes it's not a big blunder tank like a cataphract.
It's a nimble, limb removing, high speed, death dealer.

Hey, someone that can build a dragon! I like everything about this post.

Another big plus that is currently unrecognized for the DRG is its propensity for scoring successful knockdowns. It has more tonnage with better speeds than a medium mech.

[Mavairo]

Selfish, on 09 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Hey, someone that can build a dragon! I like everything about this post.

Another big plus that is currently unrecognized for the DRG is its propensity for scoring successful knockdowns. It has more tonnage with better speeds than a medium mech.

Oh yeah. I keep swearing like a sailor that we don't have knock down right now. The amount of lights that I could and should have just simply bowled over and then crotch cored them while they were down is maddening. as it is I have to settle for making their face eat crotch rockets.

[Spectre999]

CTF is oddly similar to the Dragon in one regard - no XL engine, no fun.

I spent lots and lots of hours trying to make the Dragon work.
A few tips I learned the hard way:

(o) Don't try to make it a brawler. Not until you get some practice at least. You have the agility to get a drop on slower mechs from behind (and stay on their six for as long as you need), but I had much better results when I decided to focus on medium to long range instead. Just play it like a scout, earn spot assists, use LRM or Large lasers to farm assist money.

(o) You NEED the XL engine, if only for the added tonnage. You need the tonnage for either the ballistics or the heatsinks to fuel the lasers.

(o) Avoid 5N like the plague. You'll learn to love it to hate when you'll be unlocking the Elite bonus, but the sad fact of life is that you'll almost never use its hardpoints to the full potential. 3x Machine Gun is laughable. 3x AC 2 is, frankly speaking, 20 tons that could have been spent better.

(o) I found 2x Large Laser to be a good starting point for most of my successful builds. I put them on chain fire on LMB for day to day use and link fire when I see a guaranteed killshot.
All Dragons can put fit this into the laser arm for pinpoint precision. What's better, most guys just go for the obvious gun arm, not realizing it's the other hand that's killing them.

(o) Learn to love the hardpoint setup - 1C has 4 laser slots, however half of them go on the torso, the other to on the arm. I got spoiled by the 4x arm energy slot on the HBK 4SP and had a hard time adjusting. Note that all missle slots go to the center torso, meaning they won't get shot off easily, but you only get 2 critical space slots to play with. Which means, probably no artemis for you. Best you can fit is 2x SSRM, LRM 10, or dual LRM5. If you wanted a missile boat, look elsewhere.

(o) If you really, really need to try brawling, 1N is your friend. Check out LBX + 2x SSRM and 2x MPLAS.

[bonapartist1]

A great dragon build for me which doesn't require the hugely expensive engine upgrade is

Ultra Ac/5
2 sl
2 ssrm2

A little armor stripping is necessary but is well worth it. The ultra is a beast and is well suited to the fast and furious style of the Dragon.

Dragon is my favorite mech so far- partially because it is challenging.

Grinding is no fun, the Xl engine is wildly overpriced.